Return of Reckoning

So I’m thinking:
-axeman warband spec aoe, utility.
-Hunter loner spec that has a scene in 6v6 (don’t need the lion and has benefits for not having him around) maybe has access to more things like ap drain, heal debuffs, KD.
-Guardian reliance on pet to do combined damage and focus more on having a pet active and getting benefits from him being around you (frontload burst with the cat).

Or am I being too ambitious with my suggestion?

To me it seems like 3 arguments are proposed.

The lion has no viability in group play 6 v 6
The lion has no viability in warband player other than fluff damage
The lion is doing too much damage solo and pug and outshines all other mdps classes as it can 0-100 someone in roughly 5 seconds with little counterplay.

3 issues 3 specs? Have I thought through the issue? Enough to know people might have a serious problem with my suggestion... Do I still want to suggest it to see what others think? Why not someone could possibly like it.

I’m fine with WL being a viable frontload burst class I’m not fine with how easy it is to just be steamrolled on the regular by this class with minimal effort and low risk. Giving the WL a viable warband spec and 6 v 6 loner spec might be sufficient enough for nerfs to pet damage and guardian spec.

Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

Ototo wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 10:58 pm

MedV wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 7:55 pm

Im just gonna assume you're trolling, or have no idea at all how Mara works. Of course I meant you're going full Sav tree and then either Brut or Monstro. Your build is not viable in any play at all.

Im not speaking of viability. You said a thing, which is completely false. There is nothing that blocks you from getting the AoE knockdown more than being greedy and wanting ALL. Just that simple. Your statement was a lie, and now you are trying to change subjects. Period.

So you don’t have any idea how Mara works haha.
You need cutting claw (armor debuff) and wounds debuff thunderous blow from left tree. There is no way to get mutated aggressor and guillotine and have an aoe knock down. Now you can trade mutated and execute for aoe knockdown and initiative debuff but it’s a trade off. I’m not sure what WL has to give up to get Pounce and Armor debuff and KD but I believe that was what the original discussion was about.

(...)

Still trying to change subject: I JUST SAID THAT YOU DID LIE, and you did. And I'm not gonna address a person that tries to sell me that Mara is a poor and weak class that has to take choices, cause it is not. All classes have to take choices. You can't simply have the best of each tree for free, cause it must have a trade off, WHICH IS 100% THE DISCUSSION GOING. Period.

Last answer from me. I hate people that paternalize, insult, blame, lie, or try to ridiculize others, moreover when they do so as a logical fallacy, and you have done all that.



PS: Seems that I have to address this one last time, cause you seem to keep trying to lie. The AoE knockdown doesn't have a Gift requirement, so your statement about loosing time for change here:

Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 2:16 am (...)
-Mara needs guilotine and mid tree abilities since it doesn’t have CS is what every white lion in this thread doesn’t seem to comprehend. Also knock down is in a tree (monstro) that he can’t immediately do damage in so he has to switch to either savagery or brutality to then follow up on that 2 second KD. 1 GCD to change, 1 GCD to use an ability that isn’t guillotine or cutting claw depending on what he gives up since some people think it’s viable to get mid tree instead of left tree.
(...)

It is a lie too: https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... mm=&mt=&t=

Now the last for good.

Ototo wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:58 am

Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

Ototo wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 10:58 pm

Im not speaking of viability. You said a thing, which is completely false. There is nothing that blocks you from getting the AoE knockdown more than being greedy and wanting ALL. Just that simple. Your statement was a lie, and now you are trying to change subjects. Period.

So you don’t have any idea how Mara works haha.
You need cutting claw (armor debuff) and wounds debuff thunderous blow from left tree. There is no way to get mutated aggressor and guillotine and have an aoe knock down. Now you can trade mutated and execute for aoe knockdown and initiative debuff but it’s a trade off. I’m not sure what WL has to give up to get Pounce and Armor debuff and KD but I believe that was what the original discussion was about.

(...)

Still trying to change subject: I JUST SAID THAT YOU DID LIE, and you did. And I'm not gonna address a person that tries to sell me that Mara is a poor and weak class that has to take choices, cause it is not. All classes have to take choices. You can't simply have the best of each tree for free, cause it must have a trade off, WHICH IS 100% THE DISCUSSION GOING. Period.

Last answer from me. I hate people that paternalize, insult, blame, lie, or try to ridiculize others, moreover when they do so as a logical fallacy, and you have done all that.

Not changing any subject or trying to lie lol. You just don’t understand how important left tree is because it has Armor debuff and substitute for CS (thunderous blow)
Never said Mara was a poor or weak class. Just said you don’t understand how one specs a Mara. You say Mara isn’t a poor or weak class that has to take choices... but then you say all classes have to take choices... Make up your mind the discussion is about WL not marauder, he’s not killing people in 3 gcds by himself, he needs a SH for CS to recreate the monster that is WL.

WL can effectively do what 2 classes do by itself in solo/pug play, which is why it’s so reliable.

Mara is an amazing class that is in a pretty good spot meta wise. Maybe needs some nerfs? But he’s not the one reigning FoM for quite some time now.

I think if devs start implementing some nerfs to pet damage to see how that effects things next patch and we go on from there we can see improve and work on it. Discussion is getting no where because everyone’s talking about the class in 3 different areas of play, since we haven’t decided yet what to balance things around yet. Whether it be warband solo or group play. Pretty sure it’s obvious.

Sulorie wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 5:33 pm

Drysill wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 5:11 pm WL pet reach target in 65' in 4 sec, more if its CCed, never if target is running

This is not what people see on a daily basis.

Maybe I am wrong, so you can test it yourself as well.
Unless Speed Training tactic is used so pet reach target in 65' in nearly 2,5 sec, but WL needs to use a tactic slot just to be in line with mara.

Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:18 am Don’t know why you’re acting like you can’t kill someone with 3-5 Abilites because that’s what happens. Maybe you’re specced wrong or undergeared? There are a few WLs I see during the hours I play and they are either not guardian spec or have no idea what they’re doing because I can usually fight them. But the other WLs that know how to click the 3 abilities and have the correct gear more than make up for those who are undergeared and lacking experience. The execute comes out often after CS if the target isn’t dead? But I thought that was implied with my post above.
Sorry

Typical case that 80+rr BiS WL disintegrates undergeared rr4x lowbie (according to your signature) and thinks it’s the other’s fault.
I would like to hear how you perform against rr80+ BiS WHs out there… you manage to kill them? Or is it more of the same?
FYI, every decent rr80+ dps will kill rr4x lowbie of equal skill.. its not the class..


At OP..
So you don’t want CStrikes , BPounce and LFrenzy in one build. This is the staring point..
Option 1 is the worst case imo. Option2 seems less nerfy..
Anyway, do you plan to give anything in return for this nerf?

Suggestions:
1. Increase pet speed without SpTraining tactic (to a lesser degree) so a tactic slot is free and use something else to compensate..
2. Merge SpTraining + Full Growth into 1 core tactic
3. Remake a never-used skill (like Hack) into lifetap, to increase survivability, in accordance with other mdps, but not through tactic.
4. Change pet ability Shred (at reduced value) to stack armor debuff with FOpp.

In general, I would like to see TTThreaten be appealing to use.. maybe crit% scale with tree ranks like 1% per 2 ranks, minimum 3% and remove side/rear condition.

Also, ignore haters asking for more nerf, when its clearly l2p issue. ty

I wanna point out (i also edited my main post to be more comprihensive) that option 2 would be a buff to wl if other stuff are NOT move around as i said in post page 7 / #66

Wl will spec mid instead right actually buffing his dmg from core stuff and have cull the weak in place of leonine frenzy which is the same more or less....

Drysill wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 10:40 am
Suggestions:
1. Increase pet speed without SpTraining tactic (to a lesser degree) so a tactic slot is free and use something else to compensate..
2. Merge SpTraining + Full Growth into 1 core tactic
3. Remake a never-used skill (like Hack) into lifetap, to increase survivability, in accordance with other mdps, but not through tactic.
4. Change pet ability Shred (at reduced value) to stack armor debuff with FOpp.

In general, I would like to see TTThreaten be appealing to use.. maybe crit% scale with tree ranks like 1% per 2 ranks, minimum 3% and remove side/rear condition.

Also, ignore haters asking for more nerf, when its clearly l2p issue. ty

You my hero. Remove all conditions, buff crit rate, give lifetap, buff speed and provide 2.5k armor debuff. Is everything correct?

Drysill wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 10:40 am

Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 8:18 am Don’t know why you’re acting like you can’t kill someone with 3-5 Abilites because that’s what happens. Maybe you’re specced wrong or undergeared? There are a few WLs I see during the hours I play and they are either not guardian spec or have no idea what they’re doing because I can usually fight them. But the other WLs that know how to click the 3 abilities and have the correct gear more than make up for those who are undergeared and lacking experience. The execute comes out often after CS if the target isn’t dead? But I thought that was implied with my post above.
Sorry

Typical case that 80+rr BiS WL disintegrates undergeared rr4x lowbie (according to your signature) and thinks it’s the other’s fault.
I would like to hear how you perform against rr80+ BiS WHs out there… you manage to kill them? Or is it more of the same?
FYI, every decent rr80+ dps will kill rr4x lowbie of equal skill.. its not the class..

My friends a RR6x and I play a RR58 BG. Whenever I’ve given an example it’s been from the POV of my BG. I’m not talking about my other characters from my signature but even if that were the case isn’t RoR supposed to hold the ideal of no giant gear creep between rank 40s? Meaning a fresh RR40 and a RR80 should be able to comfortably brawl, with the advantage going to the RR80 of course...

Plus just to make something clear a class shouldn’t be able to “one shot” another class regardless of the difference in gear. There should be options to Counterplay. Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion...

On my BG I handle WLs pretty well, but I will never win. 2 rotations of CS and FO tears through 8k hp and 4.5k armor pretty easily. Also sporting a 0% chance to be crit. Not sure what I’m doing wrong maybe I’ll figure it out soon but my damage just doesn’t compare or give me an opportunity to kill the lion. KD and exile at 100 hate to break combat so they decide to kill another target is really the only option.

Edit: oh witch hunters are a fun fight as long as I see them stealth and spam my KD we both end up KDing each other and then I kill em fair and square. If I don’t get my KD off they win. I think they’re pretty fair because the counterplay is there. My friend can also detaunt and survive some initial burst (he plays SH btw) allowing me a chance to get it off him or for him to get away with kaboom or sticky squigs. WH are fine mate, WLs are an issue.

It’s off topic and pointless argument, open only if you care.

With regards to the guy saying buff the WL more:

thread was made to fix white lion I think it’s underpreforming so it could use some love

Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 11:13 am
Alright I’ll take that L if that’s how it works but the base concept of having to give up the skills you need in place of CS to get a KD that a WL will have regardless is the main point here.

I take it you don’t like marauders?

I like Marauders. Liked mine in live up to RR70+ and Sov gear when was actually hard to get, hopefully can level mine here too. This, as you usual try to change subject, is not about me. You tried to rally people to your arguments misinterpretating, lieing here and there to look like a victim, and placing words in my mouth, and other persons mouths, that neither of us have said. I really expected that the last time was the last, but if you address me personally, things change.

Mara trees are fine. WL trees need a retunning of a max of 1 or 2 skill. Mara doesn't need any buff nor debuff, it's fine. WL doesn't need a crippling blow, just a bit of a tunning down.

To the players that play them cause they are OP, fine, let'em cry, I don't care. To the players that actual know how OP they are and just want a fair fight, welcomed; I will read all their comments and follow this thread cause I like it.

Fact is that order has very few MDPSs in the field. Normally order has more RDPSs. Crippling the WL, main MDPS currently in use in order, would be a fail of catastrophic proportions for the entire realm. That simple.

Knockdowns are usual in lvl40. Very usual actually for a person that plays an Engi, like I do. You won't hear me crying about Maras pulls, which took me often as target, neither about AoE KD that destroy and entire defense in High Pass. Thats the game. One time destro does, one time order does. Is that simple.

The KD was never the actual trouble. The burst can be. Equalize burst WITHOUT PET to other meles, then proceed to scale down the dmg stats of the lion itself, so the pet gets it slot as utility tool instead of as guied bomb.

If you speak about burst damage and realms, lets compare also WH with WE, would you? I don't, yet seems that I'm gonna be forced to. WEs are more powerful than WHs, Slayer=Choppa, and WLs more than Maras. There is not a huge powercreep gap among classes, just minor things here and there that can be used better or more easily. In the big picture of a Realm versus Realm game, thats balanced, and is fine. If you equalize WLs to Maras, may aswell equal WEs to WHs then, so order doesn't loose all their MDPSs.

My 2cents.

None of these "proposals" make sense. They are "band aid" changes to issues which stem from class design, pet mechanic and changes done on live to a different version of game than what we currently have. (e.g. , massive 1.5k armor debuff which was jusitfied in 1.4.8 vs Warpforged armor level enemies, but here vs Anni/Conq/Vanq level enemies is total overkill)

The class design issue is having your whole burst rotation built into Pounce - Force Opportunity - Coordinated Strike. That's your onetrick pony rotation, you might have 5-10 other abilities in Hotbar, but guess what, why bother pressing even half of them. When 90% of burst output comes from said ability combo + Autoattack dmg... what is the purpose of the remaining abilities given to a class.
Oh right, then there exist things like Pet Fetch, Pet KD and Pet Snare... which make things complicated, in ways that favour WL to win most 1v1 encounters, and be their "Achilles heel" in any proper fight where targets have Guards and heals and your pet is kinda nuked as first fight priority (and not getting healed).

Then you also forget that the class just sucks in largescale, where meta favours BW/Engi/Slayer... and you are more interested in fixing "1v1" issues than something as fundamental as WL role as a dps in the largescale endgame content, which varies from regular warbands to pushing forts with whole realm (and the absurdly amazing design of spamming AoE into door funnel for 45mins in a Fort lord room) and to even clearing dungeons which are built around AoE use vs waves of mobs. All of above doesn't matter I guess, or are deemed lower priority.

Then you have issue of AP management. Your one trick pony rotation leaves you out of AP, and as anyone playing WL knows, pet has a mind of their own and is basically retarded when you get even minor lag and it randomly might to do something or just vanish.

The class has so many issues, and none of them would be fixed by what OP provides. You'd rather poke the mentioned issues with a stick, maybe move something bit around, but end result would still be same old Pounce FO + CS rotation being all there is for the class.

How about you look at;
-lack of viable AoE build
-lack of alternative ST rotations and other St abilities being often not even worth having in hotbar
-Pet from Another World & "What Lag, Server Is Fine" & "Why is the Pet Gone" issues
-AP management and managing sustained dmg vs design around same old 3skill rotation, especially when it comes to PvE dungeons and not ending in situation of "welcome classes" vs "why would we want that class" situations.
-Pet dying coz no heals -> still OP in 1v1, but pretty much useless bag of exploding meat in any large fight or even in PvE with random boss dmg melting the pet