[Review] [BW/Sorc] Mechanic

[Pacso]

Spoiler:

The issue is that before changing mechanic on both classes you need to balance them. BW has got way more utility than Sorc therefore any changes to mechanics will hurt one class more than other.

Sorc/BW suffers from very low tool tip damage therefore if you take away a crit and crit damage from it it will just not have a burst... Burst, which if you play against party which knows what they do, very rarely is sufficient as it is cleansed, disrupted, lost LOS etc...

To make a full burst and hit for 4k+ on the same time stamp target needs to stay within LOS for 7+ seconds, do not disrupt anything, don't have CW nor be cleansed, don't detaunt... if you dont pay attention to the environment than sorry also all that damage is very predictable as you can see that better WoP was cast on you.

Bigger problem in my opinion are particular skills / tactics especially on BW - Flashfire, Burn Through, Ruin and Destruction (M2? wtf?), to a certain degree Echo of Power if Chop Fasta is up (maybe do that not affected by cooldown changing abilities).

Also when i look into my combat log (enemy ahs got it) usually over 25% of incoming damage is coming to my from backlash.

Based on that I would hold any changes to the mechanics until other things are balanced between BW ans Sorc

For a test I would suggest to change it from 35% chance to be hit to a flat DoT which hits every second for a value based on how much are you charged (at that point people will need to manage mechanics as it will kill you unless you drop it). Also it would be handy it Dhar Wind/Meltdown were instant with no cooldown so you can drop it if you want.

Or redo some skills that use mechanics instead of AP and are worth casting! but also change how you can charge your mechanics faster as you will be discharging it more often as well.

This~again. Sorc has better aoe skills (infernal waves and shadow knifes are way better than flame breath/backdraft), and stronger morale4 on that tree (paralyzing nigthtmares->confligration of doom) and no ones want to "balance" (nerf) this, only bw skills. (The ranged disarm is also ok, but the bw-s kd is gamebreaking ofc.)

We are not discussing Sorc-BW balance. We are discussing their mechanic.

[fourhundred]

Instead of just looking at how to make the mechanic worse, another option is to make options to dump combustion better. Right now, there is no benefit to using meltdown other than finishing of that tank or at <5%, and even then if you use it and do not finish them off, you have to rebuild combustion (meaning they will be easily be re-healed to full).

[SOcial]

To be fair, there is right now, no mechanics whatsoever on sorc, backlash is close to not noticeable and there is close to no reason to dump DM so basically you spam dot or whatever to get to 100 and then chain burst on CD.

The only mechanic here is the CD handling so basically same as all the classes minus something else that other classe has (say stance for sw even though its not a really good exemple)

Though i'm only talking about mono targettting as i have 0 experience of warband bombing.
I'd be happy to have some real mechanic on top of the gestion of CDs

[bloodi]

Make no mistake the sorc/BW mechanic is a false negative which can be countered by a sole healer of any level.

I guess since this is the case you have no trouble with proving that statment?

Because you would need to do that before passing it as fact, i mentioned it so did many others, on smallscale once you are focused, using skills on 100 mechanic is a death sentence, you just cannot afford it, you will die if you get any consecutive backslashes.

We already mentioned it and all we got from Penril was "i dont care what you say".

Everyone mentions the best possible scenario when talking about it, i think talking about the worst one is also due, he can freecast when he has a couple healers with no problem or regard for backslash but this is not true on smallscale under focus.

So i would like to know what this "backslash is always irrelevant" is based on, actual test, not just what i felt the other day playing some scenarios.

[GodlessCrom]

I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing some of the thought process behind the impetus for this discussion as well.

[sabat80]

Spoiler:

The issue is that before changing mechanic on both classes you need to balance them. BW has got way more utility than Sorc therefore any changes to mechanics will hurt one class more than other.

Sorc/BW suffers from very low tool tip damage therefore if you take away a crit and crit damage from it it will just not have a burst... Burst, which if you play against party which knows what they do, very rarely is sufficient as it is cleansed, disrupted, lost LOS etc...

To make a full burst and hit for 4k+ on the same time stamp target needs to stay within LOS for 7+ seconds, do not disrupt anything, don't have CW nor be cleansed, don't detaunt... if you dont pay attention to the environment than sorry also all that damage is very predictable as you can see that better WoP was cast on you.

Bigger problem in my opinion are particular skills / tactics especially on BW - Flashfire, Burn Through, Ruin and Destruction (M2? wtf?), to a certain degree Echo of Power if Chop Fasta is up (maybe do that not affected by cooldown changing abilities).

Also when i look into my combat log (enemy ahs got it) usually over 25% of incoming damage is coming to my from backlash.

Based on that I would hold any changes to the mechanics until other things are balanced between BW ans Sorc

For a test I would suggest to change it from 35% chance to be hit to a flat DoT which hits every second for a value based on how much are you charged (at that point people will need to manage mechanics as it will kill you unless you drop it). Also it would be handy it Dhar Wind/Meltdown were instant with no cooldown so you can drop it if you want.

Or redo some skills that use mechanics instead of AP and are worth casting! but also change how you can charge your mechanics faster as you will be discharging it more often as well.

[dansari]

Make no mistake the sorc/BW mechanic is a false negative which can be countered by a sole healer of any level.

I guess since this is the case you have no trouble with proving that statment?

Because you would need to do that before passing it as fact, i mentioned it so did many others, on smallscale once you are focused, using skills on 100 mechanic is a death sentence, you just cannot afford it, you will die if you get any consecutive backslashes.

That doesn't sound right to me. You're saying that if you're guarded and being healed, you can't continue to fight because you might get hit for 750 damage 2-3x in a row? And if it's that you're not being guarded and healed... yeah, you're squish, you're gonna go splat if you're getting focused.

[roadkillrobin]

How sbout stacking Initiative debuff on explosions from DD tree, Stacking Wounds debuff explosions on DoT tree and Backlash damage on explosions from skills in AoE tree.

[Penril]

So i would like to know what this "backslash is always irrelevant" is based on, actual test, not just what i felt the other day playing some scenarios.

Were you in a premade or soloing?

[Zanilos]

Spoiler:

@OP, we can throw some suggestions if we're convinced that sorc/bw mechanic is problematic. could you point that what's the real problem ?

1-lack of counterplay ?

No. Not once has this been mentioned, it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

2-lack of punishment ?

-according my enemy combat statistic my %20-30 incoming damage comes from backslash. for st it's not a problem at all but as a aoe sorc/bw it's quite punishing under pressure. just imagine you have to use your aoe abilites every gcd to create pressure and backslash ticking very very often.

That's either BS or you are simply not being focused. I could run a few SCs where no one focuses me and 100% of my damage would come from backlash. And if you can't spam your AoE due to "backlash" then find some other ways to run your bomb warbands.

So unfortunatly Haojin presents facts and they are dismissed just on a whim? He uses a combat logging tool that is pretty accurate, you penril, are using an opinion not based in fact. I'm 100% sure he can provide that evidence. If you wanna record some game play with a 'any level' healer in RvR then be my guest.

I think you should look at what abilities cause backlash and think again about this entire premise.

For aoe play its fine as it is. I have died plenty of times with 2 focused healers and a guard to it. You may not agree. But that's the best thing about facts, it doesn't matter if you do or not. For ST play, I still agree that it needs a fiddle. Have you thought about looking at what spells from ST tree have a chance of causing it?

I would also like to see your own proposals on how to 'fix' the apparent issue.

He presented facts no one asked for (counters to BW/Sorc, which we are not discussing in this thread).

You died because you were focused, heal/wounds debuffed, your healers were probably CC'd, your tank possibly got punted away from you, you got pulled by a mara, etc. etc. etc. Blaming it all on backlash is either stupid or a lie.

Now propose something for the mechanic, or stay away from this thread.