Order: Tank discussion

[altharion1]

If you can't kill an SM that has like 120 ini, 25% chance to be crit, 200 toughness, 4k armour and sub 10% avoidance stats then your group is doing something wrong.

[Haojin]

It's worth mentioning that that damage is dealt in relatively-BIS gear/4 points into crit/high str. It is designed to deal lots of damage, but that is basically all I am really offering the group.

If a SM doesn't have damage, then it is pretty bad. Also, BOs like Xarrox dish out the same sort of damage (while having better utility as a BO), and you can shut down a SM if you put your Not in da Face! on him, and taunt during his wods

so basically, if you not running with a BO [or bad gas SH ], there is no way to counter SM ? tbh even you run with NiDF, the counterplay isn't so strong due to parry from sm, cleanse [rp+am], double pot ect.

my biggest concern about SM is: they can be super glasscannon while they have the panic button which makes them survive peak of the burst. can you counter it yes, easier than bo, no.

it can be the same if BO's have "can't hit me" on default, sadly not.

If you can't kill an SM that has like 120 ini, 25% chance to be crit, 200 toughness, 4k armour and sub 10% avoidance stats then your group is doing something wrong.

nice bait :p

[Morf]

I cant understand how the few Sm players here are trying to play down how good they are, you know full well how amazing they are, god knows how many times i have seen sm's with top damage in sc's and even in Ec and Cw 6v6, out damaging the fully geared dps they are guarding, sure other tanks can achieve similar dps (not as good) however every other tank will die like a choppa/slayer if in trouble, sm's can just pop wods for 70% dodge/disrupt and 80% parry and if you really **** up or get chch far away you can just wings of heaven to safety.
You cant taunt wods because it has no gcd (nidf has 20 sec cd, is on 1 class and requires you to spec a certain mastery, hardly a counter).
Sm damage would be just fine if they didnt have the option to basically become immune to damage with a click of a button and be able to escape oh **** moments with ease.

[peterthepan3]

Every BO worth his weight has NIDF, and will save it for opportune moments. It is a counter in the right hands. Granted, competitive play seems to be lackluster atm, but it doesn't mean the counters aren't there.

People still need to get out of their head this idea that damage done in a scenario = DPS.

Noone is denying that the Swordmaster has very good DPS, but why is this suddenly an issue now when one takes into account the myriad of abilities his mirror has?

[Collateral]

Exactly my thoughts Morf, you just put it nicely into words. You don't have to think hard to see it's not easy to counter SMs. Tank and dps at the same time.

And Peter what myriad of abilities are you talking about exactly? If the BO specs completely glass cannon SM-style (even with shield), he dies in a short amount of time if a decent group focuses him (granted he doesn't have a super amazing group himself, which there aren't many around anyway, and if he's 2h, I'm afraid there's not much hope for him against any group). There are very few if any good dps BOs left, and even less groups that can keep them alive. Lets not deny the fact that BO can never achieve the level of tankiness and damage dealing at the same time like SM. He does have very important group utility and it's not a totally underpowered class, but there is so much that needs to be changed imo.

[GodlessCrom]

If I recall correctly, a lot of SM damage in scs comes from Blurring Shock, which procs off all crits done by your group and counts as the SM doing damage. So they can get some artificially inflated numbers from that.

Or I am wrong and it procs only from SM damage. Can't honestly remember lol

EDIT: We cooooould just give all tanks a WoDS equivalent

[peterthepan3]

Exactly my thoughts Morf, you just put it nicely into words. You don't have to think hard to see it's not easy to counter SMs. Tank and dps at the same time.

And Peter what myriad of abilities are you talking about exactly? If the BO specs completely glass cannon SM-style (even with shield), he dies in a short amount of time if a decent group focuses him (granted he doesn't have a super amazing group himself, which there aren't many around anyway, and if he's 2h, I'm afraid there's not much hope for him against any group). There are very few if any good dps BOs left, and even less groups that can keep them alive. Lets not deny the fact that BO can never achieve the level of tankiness and damage dealing at the same time like SM. He does have very important group utility and it's not a totally underpowered class, but there is so much that needs to be changed imo.

You should always have your AoE snare.
You should always have your quick morale gain.
You have a 25% crit damage modifier.
You have a casttime increaser.
You have a cooldown increaser.
Your Green bellow effectively allows you to play without a Chosen, if you're specc'd highly into it.

Yes, I know they're not in the same spec - but my point is that if you are going DPS on your SM, that is literally all you are providing to your group, while a SNB DPS BO Brawler/Green will provide similar dps (more on squishies), while having access to a spammable aoe snare, cd increaser, their THC that doesn't require a 2H (doesn't this sorta show that the class was intended to be played SNB DPS?), and a fast morale gain tactic allowing for quicker morale bombs.

I don't wish for this to descend into a trash-throwing contest. For the record, I do have a BO.

Xarrox is a very good BO, and he deals huge damage - while maintaining decent defense. As does Megladonis. Just because there's about 2 left doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Haojin]

Every BO worth his weight has NIDF, and will save it for opportune moments. It is a counter in the right hands. Granted, competitive play seems to be lackluster atm, but it doesn't mean the counters aren't there.

People still need to get out of their head this idea that damage done in a scenario = DPS.

Noone is denying that the Swordmaster has very good DPS, but why is this suddenly an issue now when one takes into account the myriad of abilities his mirror has?

nah peter, my point is SM's can be countered by:

1-ap drain [shaman; if he's lucky to apply it] [dd dok, if he's 70+ or give up hd] [mara, if he gimps himself with ap drain tactic] [full BL choppa with gimping himself]
2-cd increser [bo] [sh if he gimps himself with bad gas]
3-interrupt [tanks, like a joke, very situational] [mara, if hes lucky to strike agaist 50+ parry]
4-strafe like a boss [sarcasm]

yes there are **** loads of counterplay for it and all of them requires high skill level and coordination agaist a good sm. on the other hand the mirror class aka bo, can be countered by same as other dd'ers. even that bo specs for "can't hit me" he wont be a threat due to gimping himself with taking "can't hit me".

[Collateral]

Well Xarrox is not someone who is willing to share his experience with the rest of us scrubs it seems, so I'm afraid I have to do it the old 'keep trying' way.

[Morf]

Every BO worth his weight has NIDF, and will save it for opportune moments. It is a counter in the right hands. Granted, competitive play seems to be lackluster atm, but it doesn't mean the counters aren't there.

People still need to get out of their head this idea that damage done in a scenario = DPS.

Noone is denying that the Swordmaster has very good DPS, but why is this suddenly an issue now when one takes into account the myriad of abilities his mirror has?

It isnt just an issue now, been this way for ages and making out its basically a bad player issue which is where you are going with the "competitive/lackluster competition" (as usual) is bs.
I have played with cythe numerous times to know how good dps sm's can be and also know how hard they are to kill when played right.
Also your comparison that Xarrox can dish out the same sort of damage isnt quite true, dont get me wrong blorc damage can be awesome but not like sm damage tnx to sm doing spirit damage, you know this, and if you are talking about 6v6 when you have fought lob then yea damage is prolly similar because you are spending more time doing tank stuff and respawning then actually being able to focus on damage
Also for what its worth lob use to 6v6 dont panic alot, both using the same group comp on both sides, 9/10 wins would go to whichever guild was on order and sm damage would be more then destro dps damage.

Lsstly im not screaming pls nerf sm's but to deny the obvious is stupid.