DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[ToXoS]

What im getting from this thread now is just that most of the playerbase and the devs do not give a crap about pugs/less hardcore players. that's wrong. pugs exist, ignoring them is not going to make anything better. I understand and agree with focusing on a more group-based gameplay, but not like that.

I've started playing RoR in hardcore-mode and then started having less time to play to the point i've stopped. Mainly being a scenario player, i've quickly realized that playing anything that isn't a 6man premade is not worth my time, because it's not fun at all.

I've no experience in developing and maintaining MMOs but ignoring a big chunk of the playerbase is not going to help. I'm pretty sure of that.

People are missthinking of casual player... Since when caual player equals to bad player? I know many hardcore players, that cannot beat random not grouped opponentes, aswell as few "casual" players, that log once a week or even less, and they are doing quick research, inviting who they need, and carrying on with scenarios/roaming.

I my opinion whole whine about not being able to achieve win due to "bad teammates (dps tanks/heals)" is just being unable to find myself group, that will have those, that i want.

Ofcourse, DPS rely on heals/guards, but it works TWO WAY - that tank with shield and healing healer needs a DPS to win. Now what if they meet dps, that is in defensive gear, and does not threat enemeis properly?

As stated many times before - game is very complex, and it's impossible to compare situations. Casual players are fine, and unharmed.
Removing game content will result in reduced server population (Yes, the casual players play 2h tanks and dps healers aswell).

Just a quick correction here.
A 2H tank is not always a "DPS" tank. Some 2H tanks are def spec, and some SnB tanks are "DPS" spec.

[Thifall]

I intentionally narrowed problem, you're just right

[Esperflame]

When a tank goes full DPS and ignores using Guard or any of the defensive tools they have at their disposal it makes for a bad experience all around. It is still quite possible to use a 2h, and Guard, and your defensive tools. Players who refuse to do this are gimping themselves and making it hard on their team.

It's a rather complex game where each class can be played in many different ways, but in the end if you're looking to be a full DPS class, just play one of the full DPS classes. Otherwise, you should expect to fulfill your archetype when it's called for.

These issues are separate from the mechanics around Guard.

This is what I was trying to convey in my Class Archtypes and the importance of doing your job post. Archtypes exist so that when people see your character, they have at least a basic understanding of what to expect from your class. Also, there is a major difference between a Melee DoK and a DPS DoK. A melee DoK will still heal where as a DPS DoK doesn't help anyone but themselves. Tanks need to guard, Healers gotta heal, and leave the DPSing to the people who actually murder people. If you play a healer class and don't ever heal people, I'm not guarding you. I reward people who do their job with a guard, not some DPS shaman who just wants huge damage numbers at the end of the SC. FYI if your a healer DPSing, you're gimping your renown gain. (I think) On Live, you got renown for doing your archtype job more than anything else. Hell, I think in SC tanks do better on renown gains by guarding people. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure during live this was true.

[Nefarian78]

I don't know why people say RoR isn't an hardcore game. It surely isn't the most hardcore game out there, but a game that requires hundreds of hours to take a single piece of equipment is certainly pretty hardcore (talking about Scs 2h weapons for example)

I've also never said in this thread anything about non-hardcore players not having enough stuff, but some things could certainly be improved.

I think most pug players play SCs due to having less time to play the game, so for example the time difference between gearing in RvR vs SCs could be improved. Gearing in Scs gear takes ages longer than gearing in RvR whether you play with pugs or not. I've yet to see a fully SC geared player, while fully geared RvR players are very common, especially Rdps.

Stopping to treat scenarios like a minigame would also help a lot. I know the game is centered around RvR and that is how it should be, but scenarios are no minigame nor should they be. in a PvP based MMO pve is the only minigame.

[th3gatekeeper]

I don't know why people say RoR isn't an hardcore game. It surely isn't the most hardcore game out there, but a game that requires hundreds of hours to take a single piece of equipment is certainly pretty hardcore (talking about Scs 2h weapons for example)

I've also never said in this thread anything about non-hardcore players not having enough stuff, but some things could certainly be improved.

I think most pug players play SCs due to having less time to play the game, so for example the time difference between gearing in RvR vs SCs could be improved. Gearing in Scs gear takes ages longer than gearing in RvR whether you play with pugs or not. I've yet to see a fully SC geared player, while fully geared RvR players are very common, especially Rdps.

Stopping to treat scenarios like a minigame would also help a lot. I know the game is centered around RvR and that is how it should be, but scenarios are no minigame nor should they be. in a PvP based MMO pve is the only minigame.

This post is pure gold.

I actually think that gearing is very friendly. Hit 30 or so. Do Ruin gear. Get rr30+ do beastlord. Should have enough gear to be competitive end game. Gearing isn't much of an issue. Where the "hardcore" elements come from are actually the class dependency. It's a very fine balance because it is what makes WAR/ROR great. How everyone can't do everything. However I do think tanks role and ability - Guard - is the only exception. There are two ways that IMO guard needs to be adjusted.

1) turned into some sort of aoe "aura". Either perm uptime, or... A cast with an icd. This makes it much easier to use in PUG/solo settings and also allows for the non tank to "obtain" protection by merely staying near the tanks. Again, this doesn't negatively impact top tier play, but does drastically improve QOL for all non tanks which WILL spill over into other classes doing their jobs.

2) guard given a selfish benefit. Such as more disrupt/Dodge/parry when under the effects of guard. That or some type of damage increase for themselves if they attack the same Target as their guardee.

Right now guard is the core of combat and massively crucial for DPS classes to live. Playing without guard basically makes the game largely unplayable... None of this (BTW) makes guard auto pilot it easy mode etc... But it does create a more fun version of a mechanic that is lacking ATM.

The issue isnt bad vs good players or any of that crap... I was playing today with one of the best and most "hardcore" Choppas I know... He was solo Queing because he is NA playing EU times and didn't have friends or guild on at that time (cause they play NA times)... He was complaining about the PUG SC even and how the tanks weren't using guard.... He sent me a tell, cause I was using guard, and we chatted and he logged off. Said it wasn't worth getting farmed cause his Choppa can't stand up to rdps in SCs without proper guard and heals... Anyways. That's the issue.

Not the player skill or hardcore vs casual... But Guard is too critical a mechanic and without it, the game becomes unplayable.

All this being... ROR will never grow in.population without modification to this... So ANY player can get on and not feel totally worthless cause they are playing at non peak times or without coordinating play times with friends...

[Nefarian78]

I don't know why people say RoR isn't an hardcore game. It surely isn't the most hardcore game out there, but a game that requires hundreds of hours to take a single piece of equipment is certainly pretty hardcore (talking about Scs 2h weapons for example)

I've also never said in this thread anything about non-hardcore players not having enough stuff, but some things could certainly be improved.

I think most pug players play SCs due to having less time to play the game, so for example the time difference between gearing in RvR vs SCs could be improved. Gearing in Scs gear takes ages longer than gearing in RvR whether you play with pugs or not. I've yet to see a fully SC geared player, while fully geared RvR players are very common, especially Rdps.

Stopping to treat scenarios like a minigame would also help a lot. I know the game is centered around RvR and that is how it should be, but scenarios are no minigame nor should they be. in a PvP based MMO pve is the only minigame.

This post is pure gold.

I actually think that gearing is very friendly. Hit 30 or so. Do Ruin gear. Get rr30+ do beastlord. Should have enough gear to be competitive end game. Gearing isn't much of an issue. Where the "hardcore" elements come from are actually the class dependency. It's a very fine balance because it is what makes WAR/ROR great. How everyone can't do everything. However I do think tanks role and ability - Guard - is the only exception. There are two ways that IMO guard needs to be adjusted.

I agree that getting the starter gear is easy, what i meant is the endgame gear. When i first reached 40, after getting full ruin, i got full Merc in around 4days, but sadly i don't have all that time to play anymore. That's the main reason i've stopped playing, because i feel im making no progress whatsoever towards getting a new piece of gear.

Just by adding the end-game boots/gloves random drops in SCs would help immensely. I understand why there was no drops during the first weeks, but i think that time has passed, since fully RvR geared players are everywhere.

[th3gatekeeper]

I don't know why people say RoR isn't an hardcore game. It surely isn't the most hardcore game out there, but a game that requires hundreds of hours to take a single piece of equipment is certainly pretty hardcore (talking about Scs 2h weapons for example)

I've also never said in this thread anything about non-hardcore players not having enough stuff, but some things could certainly be improved.

I think most pug players play SCs due to having less time to play the game, so for example the time difference between gearing in RvR vs SCs could be improved. Gearing in Scs gear takes ages longer than gearing in RvR whether you play with pugs or not. I've yet to see a fully SC geared player, while fully geared RvR players are very common, especially Rdps.

Stopping to treat scenarios like a minigame would also help a lot. I know the game is centered around RvR and that is how it should be, but scenarios are no minigame nor should they be. in a PvP based MMO pve is the only minigame.

This post is pure gold.

I actually think that gearing is very friendly. Hit 30 or so. Do Ruin gear. Get rr30+ do beastlord. Should have enough gear to be competitive end game. Gearing isn't much of an issue. Where the "hardcore" elements come from are actually the class dependency. It's a very fine balance because it is what makes WAR/ROR great. How everyone can't do everything. However I do think tanks role and ability - Guard - is the only exception. There are two ways that IMO guard needs to be adjusted.

I agree that getting the starter gear is easy, what i meant is the endgame gear. When i first reached 40, after getting full ruin, i got full Merc in around 4days, but sadly i don't have all that time to play anymore. That's the main reason i've stopped playing, because i feel im making no progress whatsoever towards getting a new piece of gear.

Just by adding the end-game boots/gloves random drops in SCs would help immensely. I understand why there was no drops during the first weeks, but i think that time has passed, since fully RvR geared players are everywhere.

I sympathize with this but personally I think the gear grind is a journey and you gotta enjoy. Without things to work towards... People stop. So I get hesitancy to make it easier... There are a few things I dislike about gear grind... But another massive issue I see is what I have detailed above. A class like my Choppa friend, who can't play at certain times due to too.much reliance on a selfless guard mechanic.

Fix this, it makes pug games AND premade games more fun and enjoyable, which in turn makes grinding for gear a much better experience for everyone. I think.you would find it less tedious if this were the case.... All that said... I thinkost would agree a currency conversion from SC to RVR and vice versa would be really cool. It allows people to play the type of game they like (SC or RVR) to grind the gear set that appeals to them more (primary vs secondary role). This isn't about gear though, it's about why souch hate for 2h "DPS" tanks and DPS healers and why they are prominent.

I can tell you I quit ROR about a year ago for 3 reasons:
1) I got all the gear. So I started an alt Mara.
2) I got sick and tired if begging for guard and not having it and being nuked 24/7...
3) my friends quit because they couldn't really play without scheduling play times due to the mechanics of the game..with the rest of us (NA times) which lead to a vicious cycle of more and more quitting...

Which all lead to me quitting.

So I don't want to remove the gear carrot because that's what made me get bored before.... But we DO need to address why people quit.... And it's because this game cannot be played without other people and your dependency on them to do their roles and no selfish incentive for them to do something that isn't a FUN mechanic (Guard).

[ragafury]

I said I'm out... but I couldn't resist.

This post is pure gold.

Wrong this Thread is pure gold.

#puglife

Sry But ror is by far no hardcore game!!
Pugs have enough! Btw the way As pug you can earn very easy rewards

true. and the gear is more than competitve if used right.

I guess it would be a help to weaken all classes currently meta. You will often find pugs filled with everything because they are casuals they play what the like to play. Premades often go for the best option and therefore have even a higher advantage then they already have cause of proper guard/heal (2/2/2 setup). I know if you weaken the meta classes like marauder/wl, chosen/kotbs, ab ex shaman/am other classes will just take their spot but at the moment there is a quite big difference between a lot of them. You hardly every see a premade without a Wl/marauder which is just lame in my opinion. While warhammer is already very limited in the setup 2/2/2 or sometimes 3/2/1 I think it would be nice to atleast have some more classes in line.

true. fresh breeze.

What more do pugs need? They have a pug scenario, can get renown/inf/medallions quickly from being in a warband, can get ruin/beastlord gear very easily if they find a group. What is it exactly pugs are being prevented from doing?

Well my friend played on a World of Warcraft private server while I was playing the original.
He told me there was an NPC with all the gear in the game, you just needed to talk to him and than you could choose. :O
There was a second NPC next to him, he gave you currency and experience when you talked to him. :O
Next to them was the mount vendor..... :O

Here is a picture quiz for everybody:

What happened to this thread?



Oh and short edit:

I was first explaining why a change on guard is impossible, because everthing needs to be rescaled.
and than I was writing about OPs question. And I truely tried to awnser it. but no. just no.

but there is no sense in it.

this has become an emotinal filled discussion with no aim.
this is purely arguing for the sake of arguing. there is already official confirmation in this thread that the game will not get more casual. and not finding groups cause of guard... change guard and you will find more tanks or what? some ppl just want to do pew pew dps.

[Kali14]

It's funny:). If you make from guard aura ability and tank get 50% damages from all players in 10 or 30 feet range then tank die in seconds and no one want guard anymore. Better is make from this spamable ability on 1 target or even total remove from pvp and stay only to take hate from mobs.

[Collateral]

What more do pugs need? They have a pug scenario, can get renown/inf/medallions quickly from being in a warband, can get ruin/beastlord gear very easily if they find a group. What is it exactly pugs are being prevented from doing?

Also ror is not a hardcore game.

You have to be kidding. I agree that getting ruin and BL is not especially hard, and it's pretty good gear. But I don't agree about pugs just getting ez medals etc. quickly from just 'being in a warband'. Tell me, how many pugs do you see with full conq, how about 3p or even 2p? I personally don't see many, but maybe I'm not looking enough. Now tell me, how many 6mans and hc players do you see with full conq? Pretty much every single one, and on multiple characters. And why is this the case? I said it 10 times before. It's small groups following warbands, stealing kills and ganking soloers and, well, pugs. Because only dbs reward the medals. I can't count how many warbands our guild had since the new gear release, and guess how many conq do I have. 5p, maybe 6p? Nope, atm I'm on 4p, won 2 gold bags with one duplicate. Oh and the gold bags were from group play, ganking soloers and stuff you know. So now imagine the pugs getting medals by just 'being in a warband'. Sorry man, but it just doesn't happen.

I totally went derail mode, so I'm done in this thread. We can discuss this somewhere else.