[Feedback] Engineer / Magus Changes

[peterthepan3]

Who cares about non-premade balance? Why should balance revolve around people not being in a group? I honestly struggle to fathom why.

If you are in a group with other players, and are playing as a group, i.e. as you should be. - regardless of class composition/voice comms - you are a premade.

There are a lot of people complaining, yes, but why is it that the majority of these complaints seem to stem from pug play, and not premade play?

And panny boy is at it again, I also can't fathom how your views are just as short sighted as others, if every change made here has been solely around 6 man/premade play then I would truly laugh my ass off.

I guess we should always be playing in a group guys, sorry to those of you who don't have the time, who can't be bothered, or simply don't want to, shame on you for doing what you want.

Guess why most complaints come from pug players... because they make up 80% of this server, the actual 'premade' scene itself is so small compared to the overall playerbase that its not even funny. Most people won't like changes because its not what they play, its the same understanding of why bother to balance around anything at all? I don't like the changes myself, I already made my case that the engi/magus should have had its ranged slightly lowered while maintaining its damage, but I guess #pugplay.

Attempts at sarcasm aside, it has been said by members of the team you work with/on the actual balance forum that balance should revolve around organised and competent play as group/warband.

I get it - you don't like premades (in particular the 6man kind, because a well-organised WB like Haojun's I would also class as a premade). That's nice. But balance ought to revolve around competent play with players synergising their skills/archetypal roles, whether or not you agree with it or not.

Your purported 'fact', i.e that 80% of the server choose not to play in groups (not too sure if that is true to be honest), is irrelevant when talking about balance, if we are truly interested in a high-caliber and balanced PvP game. The NA community is incredibly small compared to the EU: should we make balance changes so as to appeal to one over the other, disregarding actual balance and, instead, heeding 'what the public want'? Can you take over a Keep without organisation/a good leader? Can you take over a City without proper organisation if the other team has organisation?

I have been playing a DPS Zealot and killing people in RvR/pug scenario. Should that, too, be nerfed because people don't really have a way of beating a class that can damage and heal at the same time in pug scens?

PS: And yes, you should be playing in a group in a MMO. But if you choose not to (and you have that option), you are entirely free to do so.

[Lektroluv]

If you want a nerf of dmg boost for gunturret , then we shouldn't have to lose the 4 stack when turret got destroyed (we can't stand 16seconds static , for having a small dmg boost and risk to lose 4 stack really quickly)

Why they should not lose the 4 stacks if turret is focused and destroyed???
Face the reality, if White lion pet is killed the class damage gets down for a good amount of time, if Squigh herder lose the pet he automatically lose 5% crit and autoattack while move, cut armour by 50%, lose the disarm, lose the run away ability, lose the 10% extended range...
Are you telling me a enginer can't lose 40% damage, 32% disrupt-dodge? are you joking? want something more, a nuclear attack guide by drones and gps system, mr.enginers? a Mazinguer Z size Sigmar controled by the tinkerer from inside?

Compare what are the Squigh herders and Shadow warriors receiving as buffs for theyr pets or instanceds whith what are receiving the enginers, wanna **** and not inviting me to a cup first? seriusly, as i said enginers live in theyr own reality, and they will not accept a tonedown, because they prefer sink the boat before lose theyr superiority.

You keep telling others, you lose every damage if you go defensive, still i seen defensive enginers topping damage with 90k damage.
When a Squig herder is not even close to achieve those defensive stats, even using gas squig which double him armour, the thougness stay in low numbers and pet is killed in no time cuting armour a 50%, and even worse the damage is much worse than a defensive enginer because as you know your dots can be corporeal damage not physical, either we have a continious area heal around us which can't be debufed.

You said turret got wounds debuff? squigh herder got a wounds debuff too and nobody said a thing about it, instead you maintain a 70% of both weapons damage in gun turret, while squigh herder spiked pet...the equivalent damage dealer, stuck in only the weapon dps of owner's ranged weapon, ignoring melee weapon dps.
Has been Gun turret range nerfed? no actually now the buff hit turret by 40% making it reach 140 feets attacks, the squig herder spiker pet was nerfed instead to only 80feets.

Does the tank blackguard need spend one tactic slot and 12 points for achieve a 30% disrupts only in best case not spending hate , and enginer can get 32% dodge, and disrupt, while still let him the use a keg barrel and the tank only use a SELF heal (not even group, only self) spending 14 points which consume the hate? who is the tank class, enginer or blackguard?

The solution is plain simple, and has been said even if you didn't understand or don't want to.

The gun turret, should only buff damage 40% and stop buff range, you wanna use 3 seconds ability and do more damage? go into the danger zone, and fight there, like every freaking ranged made everytime they wanted to use that abilities....shadow warriors and squig herders been using poison arrer and fester arrow with 100 feets instead of 150 always, and they could still make some hits withouth need the 150feets and much less those transoceanic ballistic system attacks from 210 feets.

Granadier turret, should only buff range by 40% and stop buff the damage, you wanna be the king of long distance? wanna be safe? ok no problem, but your damage will be much lower, because you have to face some tonedown and can't be king in every part of game.

Tinkerer, you wanna be tinkerer and be a group utility toon, ok but not giving you more dodge, and more disrupt than a tank class, while you can still heal in area and be a tank... 18% dodge and 18% disrupt adding the renow points is way more tanky than any ranged dps in this game a person can be, included mages, yeah mages can't stack armour like enginers and of course making them weaker in keep defenses and assaults and in 6vs6 because theyr heal is only self.
You have already keg barrel and pull, don't know why a range dps should be more tank than tanks.

On a side note and for your tinkerer specialization which you say, it is 50feets range....squight herder quickshoting path abilities has been 65 feets forever, you need to give up one tactic slot for make the abilities 98feet range, we have one tactic slot less by default, because nobody can give up that tactic, and our pet in that path only give us 5% crit chance and use of autoattack on movement.
We don't get any 32 dodge buff, any 32 disrupts buff either and even if it is crap that our abilities are only 65feets range and force us to only have 3 tactic slots, because extended range one is a must have or unplayable class, we didn't ask for a 32% dodge and 32% disrupt buff coming from pet, because we have not enough range if we don't use the tactic.

So, what i see is enginers which already received a quite strong boost in live servers, geting another biblical boost in RoR which make them sobrenatural in all aspects, solo, groups and keeps... and very low trys from theyr playerbase to admit,the problems with range and damage, the problems with the amount of defense they can stacks and the amount of heal they can do in area.

On live i played one enginer grenadier since day one, i know what that class deserve, what class can try to achieve and what they shouldn't get if you want a fair gameplay.

[GodlessCrom]

Is it actually possible to measure how many players are pug versus running in premades? I think making up stuff like "80% of players play as pugs" does more to hurt discussion than it does foster it because there's no data for that claim and so it's unfalsifiable. Even if it is true, and I don't doubt that most players pug rather than premade, it's still a bit of a dead end, since you're essentially making stuff up and saying "these arbitrary numbers mean I'm right and you're an elitist who is wrong."

This goes for any feedback or balance discussion. Too often I see people making claims or arguments with no actual evidence besides "trust me, Im right."

[Tesq]

maybe it's better divide ppl as D&D powergaming or group play normally

I think that regardless the composition 1 dd should be = 1 dd of any other kind; the synergy can change the pro and contr too but a group should be for base (skill excludede) balanced x se with the correct number of role inside the party. In this way pug vs premade talk are meaningless just group and just that.

[adei]

Attempts at sarcasm aside, it has been said by members of the team you work with/on the actual balance forum that balance should revolve around organised and competent play as group/warband.

I get it - you don't like premades. That's nice. But balance ought to revolve around competent play with players synergising their skills/archetypal roles, whether or not you agree with it or not.

The fact that 80% of the server choose not to play in groups (not too sure if that is true to be honest) is irrelevant when talking about balance, if we are truly interested in a high-caliber and balanced PvP game. The NA community is incredibly small compared to the EU: should we make balance changes so as to appeal to one over the other, disregarding actual balance and, instead, heeding 'what the public want'?

I have been playing a DPS Zealot and killing people in RvR/pug scenario. Should that, too, be nerfed because people don't really have a way of beating a class that can damage and heal at the same time in pug scens?

PS: And yes, you should be playing in a group in a MMO. But if you choose not to (and you have that option), you are entirely free to do so.

Quoting the balance forum rules won't do much since nobody seems to adhere to them, and there are propositions made with no regard to them. I am not denying that the whole 'premise' of balance is supposed to be around group and warband level. But again I would not go into that since I am far more aware of what goes on than you are. competent play is subjective, lots of premades are outdone by smaller groups, as are warbands outdone by lessers.

Its not about not liking premades, any group is a premade. The idea is you balance around the masses, or you will have no masses, I have given examples and feedback regarding the enigneer and magus, feedback shared by many others that play the classes both solo and premades. My suggestion was to keep the enigneer how it was a couple patches ago, with the x8 and 5s cd on snipe etc, and simply tone the range down slightly. I'm not sure how many people remember what happened when these classes were initially buffed, but the outcry was huge. All I vote for is a decrease in range due to how simplistic and uninvolved it makes the class.

What we seem to fall under is the fact that most decisions get drawn into, ah but yes, can you do it in X or Y? theorycrafting seems to dominate over facts and testing.

And no. you should not be playing in a group in an mmo, that is entirely subjective once again, its a massively multiplayer online game, there are group elements, and there are solo elements.

[Epo]

Looks like people trying to turn the class into something its not, or trying to be too creative. Is there a problem with just increasing the range how it was and a very slight damage increase. I don't play this mess anymore but whatever just a suggestion.

[Azarael]

I will await commentary from the likes of Karast, Ravai and Pan regarding the effect of lowering the Magus and Engineer range bonus to 20% max.

[dur3al]

Guys, remember about my lengthy post at Sell me on this. thread, page 19? If you've time please read it.

Wouldn't it much better have better players balancing classes instead of general opinion?

Quoting what I said there:

Most resistance to changes comes not from desire to not push forward, but for doing it for the wrong reasons and mostly pushing changes that were not really necessary. Keep in mind its not resistance to the current meta, but to be able to measure the changes - as I posted somewhere in balancing forums, if you're to keen to completely blow a hole into the meta you'll not be able to measure the changes done and how effectively they were in the first place, leading to other changes who were not really necessary since you couldn't even measure the impact of the first change - and all the while it will have a nasty side-effect that will make people move away from their comfort zone getting pissed about the game and the staff and the whole snow-ball process of bitterness gets even worse.

And isn't this what we're doing at the moment? Making changes up and down all the time? How much more stressful is this then to actually address what the class needed in the first place?

And yes, changes and balancing must be done taken into account group play and synergy. I thought that's obvious isn't it?

The idea is you balance around the masses, or you will have no masses [...]

Then why did you change WP/DoK since it was the most common class used by "the masses" and everyone was happily playing and enjoying it being a full back-line healer? Smells contradiction to me.

I'll be honest, this comment scares me, and if that is the direction I guarantee that you'll just keep breaking any sort of balance. To be frank, most people are still are noneffective on their classes for the most part, even seasoned players, so they'll obviously scream for a nerf or buff for stuff that they've no idea about. As an example, imagine if leaders of the world would only do things to "please the masses", everyone would be having a ferrari and have a vacation 24/7 - Sounds good no? But not really possible or feasible

[Grunbag]

If you want a nerf of dmg boost for gunturret , then we shouldn't have to lose the 4 stack when turret got destroyed (we can't stand 16seconds static , for having a small dmg boost and risk to lose 4 stack really quickly)

Why they should not lose the 4 stacks if turret is focused and destroyed???
Face the reality, if White lion pet is killed the class damage gets down for a good amount of time, if Squigh herder lose the pet he automatically lose 5% crit and autoattack while move, cut armour by 50%, lose the disarm, lose the run away ability, lose the 10% extended range...
Are you telling me a enginer can't lose 40% damage, 32% disrupt-dodge? are you joking? want something more, a nuclear attack guide by drones and gps system, mr.enginers? a Mazinguer Z size Sigmar controled by the tinkerer from inside?

Compare what are the Squigh herders and Shadow warriors receiving as buffs for theyr pets or instanceds whith what are receiving the enginers, wanna **** and not inviting me to a cup first? seriusly, as i said enginers live in theyr own reality, and they will not accept a tonedown, because they prefer sink the boat before lose theyr superiority.

You keep telling others, you lose every damage if you go defensive, still i seen defensive enginers topping damage with 90k damage.
When a Squig herder is not even close to achieve those defensive stats, even using gas squig which double him armour, the thougness stay in low numbers and pet is killed in no time cuting armour a 50%, and even worse the damage is much worse than a defensive enginer because as you know your dots can be corporeal damage not physical, either we have a continious area heal around us which can't be debufed.

You said turret got wounds debuff? squigh herder got a wounds debuff too and nobody said a thing about it, instead you maintain a 70% of both weapons damage in gun turret, while squigh herder spiked pet...the equivalent damage dealer, stuck in only the weapon dps of owner's ranged weapon, ignoring melee weapon dps.
Has been Gun turret range nerfed? no actually now the buff hit turret by 40% making it reach 140 feets attacks, the squig herder spiker pet was nerfed instead to only 80feets.

Does the tank blackguard need spend one tactic slot and 12 points for achieve a 30% disrupts only in best case not spending hate , and enginer can get 32% dodge, and disrupt, while still let him the use a keg barrel and the tank only use a SELF heal (not even group, only self) spending 14 points which consume the hate? who is the tank class, enginer or blackguard?

The solution is plain simple, and has been said even if you didn't understand or don't want to.

The gun turret, should only buff damage 40% and stop buff range, you wanna use 3 seconds ability and do more damage? go into the danger zone, and fight there, like every freaking ranged made everytime they wanted to use that abilities....shadow warriors and squig herders been using poison arrer and fester arrow with 100 feets instead of 150 always, and they could still make some hits withouth need the 150feets and much less those transoceanic ballistic system attacks from 210 feets.

Granadier turret, should only buff range by 40% and stop buff the damage, you wanna be the king of long distance? wanna be safe? ok no problem, but your damage will be much lower, because you have to face some tonedown and can't be king in every part of game.

Tinkerer, you wanna be tinkerer and be a group utility toon, ok but not giving you more dodge, and more disrupt than a tank class, while you can still heal in area and be a tank... 18% dodge and 18% disrupt adding the renow points is way more tanky than any ranged dps in this game a person can be, included mages, yeah mages can't stack armour like enginers and of course making them weaker in keep defenses and assaults and in 6vs6 because theyr heal is only self.
You have already keg barrel and pull, don't know why a range dps should be more tank than tanks.

On a side note and for your tinkerer specialization which you say, it is 50feets range....squight herder quickshoting path abilities has been 65 feets forever, you need to give up one tactic slot for make the abilities 98feet range, we have one tactic slot less by default, because nobody can give up that tactic, and our pet in that path only give us 5% crit chance and use of autoattack on movement.
We don't get any 32 dodge buff, any 32 disrupts buff either and even if it is crap that our abilities are only 65feets range and force us to only have 3 tactic slots, because extended range one is a must have or unplayable class, we didn't ask for a 32% dodge and 32% disrupt buff coming from pet, because we have not enough range if we don't use the tactic.

So, what i see is enginers which already received a quite strong boost in live servers, geting another biblical boost in RoR which make them sobrenatural in all aspects, solo, groups and keeps... and very low trys from theyr playerbase to admit,the problems with range and damage, the problems with the amount of defense they can stacks and the amount of heal they can do in area.

On live i played one enginer grenadier since day one, i know what that class deserve, what class can try to achieve and what they shouldn't get if you want a fair gameplay.

I never said I was not aware of how much powerful engineer is now , and I'm not a part of player that don't allowed any nerf or changes , if I made this topic this is for having discussion with all class / faction .

You can't compare the sh bonus pet that give you instantly the full bonus and you pet is following you , even if the pet is far away you get the bonus . If tour squig die , you have first à ability that self kill your squig and allow you to resumon a new one without delay And have again a full new buff.
For engineer you have to stay really close to the turret to have the bonus effective , wait for 16 second to have the full bonus (if you're pushed back no more bonus , while squig can run back with his squig keeping his buff ) , and if you get your turret destroy (or summon a new one without using redeploy) you lose instant 4 stack plus 2 stack more with the time cast of a new turret (2seconds)
I agree that maybe we shouldn't have both 40% range and 40% dmg boost to me, but I don't play rifleman , i don't know they PoV and the difficulty they meet I don't wanna talk for them .
When I said 50feet range for a tinkerer it's not the distance that I can select my target : actually my range is 65feet -40% so around 35 feet . If I'm full buffed my aoe grenade can hit 10feet with aoe radius around my target.
35 feet is really close and this is actually the range of the guard , so don't tell me I have almost the same range as a SH .
Yes sometimes I can make 90k dmg in a sc , like when I was grenadier I can make 300k dmg in a sc : this is really rare and exceptional , don't think we make that much damage all the time , we are around 50k with full aoe which is not a lot

Maybe the dodge/disrupt is not quite good for you , but with a so small range what would you give to tinkerer instead ?

I don't wanna be the king of anything but I don't wanna be a joke , so I'm ok to have discussion about balance between the class .

[Grunbag]

What you propose if I understand :
Rifle man : remove the damage boost and keep the range bonus
Grenadier : remove the damage bonus and add a range bonus
Tinkerer :remove the dodge / resist buff but keep the range nerf (add something in change og dodge/disrupt bonus?)

So basically it's a nerf of the original engineer :
Rifleman got now the gunturret with less wounds, all path can lose 4 stack instant while before we lose stack slowly , they got a sniper with 10 sec cd and it's harder to get in the tree (13points) and lose the 20% damage boost we originally got with all turrets . all this lost for a +40 range bonus
. I think rifleman rather back to how engineer was originally before engineer changes .

Grenadier : you want to give him a range buff but he already can have one with a tactic , I think it's useless to have twice the same bonus in the tree , grenadier would lose the damage bonus but they got a mobile buff (we need feedback on the mobile buff to tell if it's great or not )

: tinkerer : they got a dodge / disrupt bonus , if you remove it, it only left a range nerf (huge one ) , and yes we got a aoe cap/radius up which is not work with all tinkerer abilities (lightning rod not affected my aoe cap/radius , and magnet Is not affected either) don't tell about keg cause it doesn't have to be affected to me by any bonus .
So we got aoe radius buff with the grenade(like grenadier) but tinkerer don't have the range to use it properly , only friction burn and static discharges worth the aoe radius / cap buff .
If tinkerer lose either the boost damage buff, and the dodge disrupt buff as you suggest , what would left to him ? A range nerf and half his ability aoe buffed ?

If you want to compared to squig herder buff , I'd be agree to get instant +10% range with gun turret all the time my turret is alive and even if I'm far away from my turret (like squig does)
I'd be agree to have instant +5% crit with grenadier turret even if I stand far at from my turret
I'd be agree to have twice my armor instant with flameturret even if I'm far away from my turret

You can't compare the squig buff to turret buff that has longer to take and keep te engineer static near it .

Plus don't forget we already lose our M2 uF 100% due to buff damage (and its normal) and if you remove the boost damage buff why keel the M2 nerfed ?

If we take a look at your proposal and compare it to how was engineer in live :

We lose 20% dmg bost quicker to get (8 second if I remembers well) , possibility to summon a new turret without lose any stack , and lose stack slowly if we get far from turret . We lose theM2 UF as the burst we got . We got a gunturret weaker (4hit instead of 7, less wounds) tinkerer lose range to have a half aoe radius up and rifleman got a sniper higher ins tree and cd nerf .

To me what you suggest is worst than what engineers got originally

All o