Bozzax wrote:You do realize ram duty or reloading guns are less fun then tetris?
Breaking up zergd 4/5 haven't had time to test it yet so maybe I'll need to come back and edit it to 5/5
Precisely because ram duty is so boring, rams now hit for 10% per full 4-man swing.
Calendra wrote:Very nice patch, T2-3 will be completely dead in few days or less because of new siege deployment system. So pve all the way to T4, yay!
And yeah, nicely done with Active Front, forcing people to blob in one zone will make rvr even laggier and crashes more fun.
A rank 0 keep door can be destroyed by a single cannon in 40 shots. Part of the aim of this patch was to restore the playability of the RvR campaign in lower population areas. Why not save your misplaced tears for until you've actually read and understood the logs?
On "blobbing in one zone": read the notes. If you blob, you are going to eat 2.25k a pop from cannons (in a line attack) and 2.4k plus knockback or stacking snare from artillery pieces, plus you're going to lose your keep rank because you're not returning resources. But by all means, don't let me stop your knee from jerking so high that it breaks through your desk.
dur3al wrote:
Not only in PUG vs PUG situation, but in 12v12 scenarios too, in 18v18 scenarios, and in general oRvR. Hell even in 6v6 scenarios we've managed to beat a full melee train while using a magus/sorc/mara setup, and beat some other setup with a BW/SL too, think it's even on youtube from Fusion.
Regarding the 90% I'll hold you into that, let me just start taking screenshots of scenarios and general kill spam in oRvR.
Fusion is a good group with good players who work very well together. Of course they can win a 6v6 running a few rDPS classes, even against a good melee train. I don't see your point.
Let me know when a group of bad rDPS beats a good melee train group.
Please quote where I said that bad rDPS beats a good melee train group? Maybe sure in open oRvR those melee do get picked quite a lot by all the rDPS and die often, starting the zerg train to roll over the rest of them, you know why? Because they're the very first target there is.
I stated that the risk/reward ratio for rDPS is much better in comparison with mDPS, considering solo play, pug play, general oRvR, 12v12 scenarios, 18v18 scenarios. This is just a clear statement and I don't think it leaves room for any other interpretation... if you do not agree with it, then I don't know what to say...
Azarael wrote:Recent changes give a number of bones to MDPS:
- Smaller engagement sizes because people are more spread out and running resources etc -> less disfavourable massing of ranged to kill MDPS
I hope to test this the next few weeks, lets hope it achieves the expected result.
Azarael wrote:- MDPS are the most powerful users of siege equipment because of their high Str
I'm sorry but.. as much as I like the change in making mDPS be a little bit more relevant to siege fights, its probably one of the most boring things there is to do it, but I welcome the change regardless, even if it doesn't support good/fun playing.
Azarael wrote:- Artillery in particular has a number of benefits to them - it can blow massed RDPS apart with knockback and bring them down off the keep walls, and the threat of artillery knockback / disruption on both sides contributes to spreading players out, giving MDPS targets in the form of split groups manning siege to charge.
Does this blow the people on the walls inside the keep or pulls them outside? Because if its the former I don't see much point in it.. Would be nice to be able to pull them outside like engineers are pulling through terrain atm. I'd like that
In my opinion changes on T dagger its acuttualy a nerf... How to dismount players now when we are not in meele range ? Before we could use 3 T daggers to dismount the ridiculous 60% chance.. now if we fail 1 T dagger..target its done. The cooldown on snap shot / t dager its BAD!!! we WEs will be missing alot of kills for that...no spamable range weapon on a meele dps, thats core!! ty for changing something that has been the same since release.What WE needed was snare on meele skill.. we are on the bottom chain of mdps right now. adding slow on meele skill woudnt change much...WE/WH its on light armor.
Calendra wrote:Very nice patch, T2-3 will be completely dead in few days or less because of new siege deployment system. So pve all the way to T4, yay!
And yeah, nicely done with Active Front, forcing people to blob in one zone will make rvr even laggier and crashes more fun.
A rank 0 keep door can be destroyed by a single cannon in 40 shots. Part of the aim of this patch was to restore the playability of the RvR campaign in lower population areas. Why not save your misplaced tears for until you've actually read and understood the logs?
On "blobbing in one zone": read the notes. If you blob, you are going to eat 2.25k a pop from cannons (in a line attack) and 2.4k plus knockback or stacking snare from artillery pieces, plus you're going to lose your keep rank because you're not returning resources. But by all means, don't let me stop your knee from jerking so high that it breaks through your desk.
I'm sorry, but i was in T2 a bit earlier with my bg and the "fight" was like this: order stood for 30 mins and watch the door, untill some left and rest wiped. One full wb of destro took bo's and marched to order keep, some guy tried few times to bring an canon adn failed (because he keept trying to deploy ram until we/he realized our keep needs to be rank 3). In meantime our keep rank was lvl 1 and suddenly dropped, people got tired and disbanded. Me and another guildie then waited another 30 mins so order took bo's, and after more time they managed to bring an canon from their keep. about 2h of "fights" in T2 from which 1 was waiting and otehr running for bo's. People will go to pve, if this can work in T4 because its end zone, in lower tiers people will just skip rvr completely.
The sieges are expensive for people with no lvl 40 chars, and the "game" to bring a siege canon to keep takes too long to be fun. T2-3 was kinda dead before except some days in primetime, now will be completely dead.
Did i mentioned i couldn't place a counter canon on walls because "the keep have not enough resources" or something like that? Yes, i've read the patch and understood them, too bad these can work on paper only especially when most don't care about lower tiers.
About eating artilery dmg, im pretty sure those maguses/engies can eat the canon alive in less than 30sec, so not worrying too much. There is no safe place to use a canon anymore.
Also, in fights for locking one zone before (when was only one area open) the lag was all over the place, even in warcamps. So making everyone to fight in one zone will increase lag in prime time, making unplayable for lot of people.
Was this constructive enough?
Thanks for your work. But i dont understand why it was necessary to swap 4 and 5th bonuses at all t4 gear sets. Its gimping all gear and now u cant do a mix between anni and other pieces cause u need this crit/block/parry very hard. As a tank i could make hybrid build for lowerchance of being crit from lair chest and stay with my block/parry bonus from 4pieces of set (anni/ruin). Now i must use full anni or full ruin. As snb tank theres no reason to take anni at all now. Also now dps have much lower crit chance at all gear and cant stack it with anni/influence gear mix. For some classes like SH its real disaster due to low ability dmg output crit chance was like breath, you could mix 4 pieces for crit and take 1 piece with crit aswell. What was real reason to do that?
Phalanx/Zerg Atrocob - Engineer 40/50+ Kuporoz - BW 40/50+
Larkuz - BO 40/50+
Larkus - Mara 40/49
Komet - SH 40/54+
Fellow - BG 40/40+
Uglic - Shaman 40/50+
People QQd because everyone cares more about crushing PUG groups than making a fun/balanced game for all.
"guard is fine" "L2P"
I guess im just curious, at what point does the game get, where people realize that maybe creating an "organized-only" game probably isnt the best idea, that there should be a healthy balance between content for casual players, who may not have a guild, or may not have a bunch of friends online 24/7, but who want to play SCs and RVR?
Guard is one of the most pivotal abilities in the game, yet is rarely ever used except by a handful of skilled tanks, or in premade groups (both in SC/RVR) and its one of the biggest "gatekeepers" in making this game more accessible to all players.
As a MDPS, you are essentially forced into finding a guild, begging for a "guard bot" otherwise the game really isnt all that fun, hence ALL the comments about this game being so RDPS friendly... Everything stems around guard as being one of the pivotal key roles in MDPS avoidance.
Being a tank, and maining a tank, I would LOVE to see guard adjusted to be more friendly and intuitive to all players. The only solution I have seen proposed by seasoned players is "/tell them how to guard" or "write some guides on the forums". Its frankly a joke.
Id love to see some rework to guard, even if it meant something like guard turning into an "aura" where any party member inside 30 feet split damage with the tank. Or Guard being an "active" ability that is cast providing aoe mitigation rather than damage split, or a myriad of other "versions" where it still fills the SAME role but is more "PUG" friendly and MDPS friendly so a player CAN join a random warband in RVR as a MDPS and expect to be able to be viable without having to beg for guard or out of party heals...
Just my 2 cents from an NA player who has struggled to find active committed players to play with. I know many people disagree, because any deviation from "thats not how it was on LIVE bro" is seen as a threat to their glory days and the ability to re-live what once was....
Most will state that Guard is pretty OP, especially when the range was further than intended. I have no idea what would be the solution, but I too would like to see something different in place. However, adding another OP Aura is just a no go.
I am in the same boat as you, I primarily play a Tank in NA Nights, and I primarily play with my guildies. We are recruiting if interested.
COnfused about one thing though, you seem to be against being "forced" into a guild for a Guard Bot, but seem all for being "Forced" Into a guild for the siege changes.
Working from he bottom up,
I am not at all against being forced into a guild, in fact I JUST posted this morning in this thread (on page 2) that I am glad they made it so T4 ram can only be used by guilds and that this would encourage more people to guild and that is one PART of the problem - people who dont guild and I think MORE content needs to be "gated" in this way.
That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the "average" players who come home from a long day of work and just want to get on WAR and do a few quick SCs, or see if any RVR is going to relax, have FUN, and do something less "serious". Many times I fall into this camp myself. Weekends I can be more "die hard" but after a 10-12 hour work day, the last thing I want to do (SOMETIMES) is get online and then beg players to group up, get in TS/discord/nameyourcoms and then play. Many nights I get on, I get 2-3 people and we sit around in IC for 25 minutes trying to fill spots with competent people and end up doing a TRIO Q or something instead.
Or what about times where maybe you decide to play at 5am when NONE of your guild is online, you cant do ANYTHING because you dont know anyone. Normally as a tank, I just find a decent Mara or someone to do my thing with, but ive also played the "other side" with both playing a BW and Mara myself to understand the different roles (id recommend doing this to ANY tank out there btw) and its really pathetic how unplayable classes can be without a team. I dont want to drag this into a "class balance" thing, but just saying I leveled my Mara ONLY through PVP and I literally was given guard less than 5 times and I asked for it in EVERY match I played, I even would follow the tanks around in the off chance they would use it. It was really sad. What made me perma retire my Mara was doing a PUG warband. No out of party healing, no tanks guarding, we spent easily 30min+ and wiped countless times.
Anyways, to the point, guard is a very pivotal role in MDPS and overall DPS mitigation. The current form demands coordination and selflessness on the part of the tank, to the point that the majority of the time you play, if you are not in a premade group, it never works.
This alienates new players who dont understand this, or even casual players who want to just get on and do a few SCs casually, or even low population times/guilds/players who maybe CANT put a full party together, etc.
I am not trying to make it a "PUG ability" or "EZmode" or anything like that, hence my thread, asking for ideas from the community. Rather than ideas, it got the same old "L2P" garbage. I think the community here has massive creative power and I bet SOMEONE could come up with a genius idea on how to make guard more intuitive and easier to impact a group, to allow players who are NOT the tank, to be able to have some "control" over if they can be protected by the tank themselves. Many "modern" games put this responsibility on BOTH parties - the tank and the "protected" where as in WAR the majority of that responsibility falls on the tank himself. Using a great example - Reinhardt from Overwatch has a massive shield he can use to protect himself from damage, but also if his allies CHOSE they can hide behind him to also take advantage. This "guard" helps the tank himself reduce damage and also offers protection to allies who CHOOSE to accept it.
Contrast to guard here, the tank and the tank ALONE has the job of casting guard on an ally and THEN also the tank and tank ALONE has the job of staying withing 30 feet of him... This gives the players that NEED the protection (DPS) zero control over their ability to take advantage of a tank in their party. This is what I would HOPE to change...
EITHER, make it give a selfish benefit to the tank, so that he WANTS to use it more and has personal selfish incentive to do so, OR you could make it more passive/aura like so that a MDPS who WANTS protection and run behind or close to a tank and get some benefits without the tank being responsible. These are just ideas, im sure others can come up with better.
Balance Essence - can't crit when empowered? not sure about that. have to try this
Only one zone at a time? hmm (we need a feedback thread just for this please).
I really love that they are adding Keep ranks and giving Guilds more importance... I'm just not sure it's been done in a good way.
I think it might be a mistake to ask players to 'play fetch' with the supplies.. We'll see!
The light beam on the supply runners looks fantastic!
Oh, last point- Moral channels - could this be implemented for all Moral (not just M4)? eg Raze. It's not fun to see a Raze drop and only hit for one tick..
thx
Last edited by navis on Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
