The Magus/engi buff

[Azarael]

Prolly been bugtracked a thousand times but there also should be a CD on summon when a turret/pet is destroyed or self-destructed

All turrets or just the one that was destroyed?

@others: I'm trying to work with the mechanics and concepts we have, and without creating classes that, while viable, differ little conceptually from other classes. Increasing the mobility of a pair of classes whose concept and mechanic are built around static play (including their CC) does not lead anywhere good, imo.

Yes, doing this will cause gameplay and meta shifts. I'm aware of that. I only care about whether the class is balanced and has valid counterplays.

I will also mention that the range buff isn't going to be universal. In future, it's going to be linked to the Gun Turret and Pink Horror, and the other turrets and daemons will give bonuses more themed around their paths.

[Vdova]

Issue is not orvr to be honest atm. Let them shine here. Issue with them are in some scenarios. Engie just stand right infront of theyr warcamp in the champ guard range and still covering BO with theyr firepower. No melee can attack them because they get instakilled by guards. If You dont have mara with pull and no whole party coordination, if any rdps try to také them down, theyr are killed from theyr boosted range before they can even reach them.

[UmmOK]

My experience with these changes is similar to those posted by other destru players staying on topic:

1. More than one Engineer with more than one Keg out is an issue. 300 HPS on the Engineer by itself is manageable. 300 HPS on the Engineer and his new "crutch" the Turret is manageable with group organization/punts/KDs/ Snares. The same cannot be said for 600 HPS on two Engineers and their Turrets. It seems to me that the new key to taking an Engineer out of play in scenarios (short of focusing down the Engineer) is now to either punt him down the side of the terrain away from his turret so he has to spend 10 seconds running back or redeploy at another location, or to kill the turret repeatedly. Order players aren't stupid. Now that the new changes are in effect, the lowly Engineers are actually being guarded now. The multi-keg set up, with Group heals, and a decent tank make the argument against "standing still" to gain the damage buff moot.

IMO Engineers should retain the gains of some of the range buff from this new mechanic, and some of the gains from the damage buff, but give up some of the healing aspects of the Keg.

IMO the Keg needs to be looked at not only because the Magus is missing this piece (yes I know - no mirrors) but also because in group settings, the stacking nature of multiple kegs allows the Engineers to ignore the inherent drawbacks they have and remain sedentary.

If I had to suggest some changes to test for this, I would like to see the following tested:

Reduce the range buff from the stacks to half as much gain as currently available in game. This means that the benefit from standing in one spot in range of your turret (as on a keep wall) is good, but not an "at all costs" motivating factor.

I would also like to see the damage buff from the turret stacks reduced for the AoE abilities ONLY. Single target is single target. AoE at that range is too much as it sits now. In a perfect world, I would hope that there could be a sliding scale on the AoE damage. Full base + Damage Buff at Melee range and "normal" ranges (according to the tool tips on the abilities), and less and less the further out the AoE is placed from the Engineer. A sliding scale of percentages lessening as the AoE ability move further away. I understand a sniper at 175 ft, not a grenade.

In terms of the Keg. I believe that it is the stacking nature of the heals that is the main issue. If, again, we had a sliding scale on these items, I think we could keep the self-heal viable while limiting the "OPness" of the group heal effects. 1 keg = Full 300 HPS, 2 Kegs = 450, 3kegs = 500 or something along those lines. Also, I would diminish the heal benefit to the turrets by 50% for both group heals, Kegs, etc.

[Griff]

Any ideas on what the alternative pet buffs might be?

EDIT: In reference to Azarael.

[Azarael]

Any ideas on what the alternative pet buffs might be?

For 3rd path, no idea yet.
For 2nd path, likely fuse reduction - DoTs have reduced duration and tick interval.

[Kragg]

Engineers get thrown a well-deserved bone and everyone wants to take it right away.

So salty!

[warkaiser]

On-topic:

One of bigger problems with changes are:

- turrets still shooting through walls&obstacles. I know this is very old issue that won't be resolved anytime soon, but it became more of an issue due to changes. (I pity all light armor newcomers in T1).

On a completly personal opinion I also really don't like that game became more pew-pewy almost overnight as it was very ranged heavy even before.
Hopefully that is just temporary effect of a buffs&changes, but I guess we will see about that in future.

On-topic2, speculatory:

Engi&Magus definately needed boost, but in my newbie to War Online still opinion problem with Engi/Magus does not lie with range or damage, but rather that they are static classes in an pvp game that is about mobility. True fixing of those classes seems to me would be to make them more mobile rather than buff their "numbers".

While I agree to a point about topic 2, altering their mobility the wrong way basically just turns them into a SH rather than having classes fill unique roles. Stationary classes can be very important if done right, it's just something the players using that class need to learnt o adapt to.

If you think theyre a stationary class I would like to use an example from another PvP focused game I used to play, RF Online. There was a class called "Striker" who specialized in rocket launchers, which on their own only did half decent small AoE damage. Where they shined though was in the use of Siege Kits. They could whip out a Siege Kit which would make them completely stationary but boost their stats in various ways depending on the kit used. A couple examples are the Sniper Kit which gave you huge range and a big damage boost, but lowered firing speed. Another was a Rapidfire kit which shortened range and decreased damage but gave you insane fire speed (amazing for crit locking people to prevent heals), and then the more standard kits which gave you some range, some damage, and some defense. All Kits gave you access to special siege only skills which were, especially in sniper kit, capable of 1-2 shotting nearly anything.

They were the most desired DPS class for the faction that had Strikers, but there were a LOT of bad strikers who didnt seem to comprehend when it is and isn't a good idea to siege up (ie: when your force is giving ground and the enemy zerg is charging right at you....not a good idea to siege up and be unable to move).

Anyway, sorry bit of a rant about the game/class, but point is in comparison Engi and Magus are not stationary at all. They just dont go into a fight immediately being at full potential without properly building up and making wise choices for where to position themselves and when. BW/Sorc are much the same in that fashion, have to build up their mechanic to reach full power, and cant just charge into the middle of a battle without thinking.

It seems like a lot of engi/magus players have trouble dealing with that and want to just be at max power at all times and have the same mobility as a SW, but still be capable of way more damage in large-scale battles. But let's face it, even an SW has to play smart if they want to be good or they're going to get caught by melees, and they're not at full power either when being forced to kite in comparison to the old Festering Arrow builds that could practically 1 shot squishies, or even the 1s EE cast (pre-AP cost increase that nerfed it). Sure, they're better at kiting, but they're also not reaching their full damage potential either.

[peterthepan3]

Blue's points are exactly why I mentioned the importance - in this particular case - of making a distinction between the Magus and the Engineer when balancing/fine-tuning these buffs, regardless of the fact that they are 'mirrors': there are plenty of people complaining about the Engineer, yet maybe one or two (of whom none are yet to make convincing arguments with evidence to justify their stance) complaining about the Magus.

Also any RDPS class that is under pressure can not really do damage so that's a moot point.

@Warkaiser
1) T1 does not = T4.
2) Actually, it takes 16 seconds to get that buff.
3) Please don't spread lies. Everyone knows Magus AOE Dots hit like wet noodles (Infernal Blast being somewhat of an exception IF rift spec'd and IF 50% crit dmg and IF in melee range to cast it!)
4) If you want to maintain the buff in 6v6 or fast-paced PvP, it actually DOES necessitate using a tactic slot (instapet/resummon AP free). Please do your research.

1) I was using it as an example of just how far the range is and how easily exploitable it is with just a bit of terrain advantage. You're right though, T1 is not T4, in T4 its even worse because you can sit up on top of keeps.

2) I never said it is less than 16 seconds, in fact I confirmed it. The 8 seconds I mntioned was if you still have half of your stacks up when redploying after repositioning, it only takes 8 seconds to get back to full. You do not lose the entire 16 seconds worth of buff instantly.

3) As opposed to which SW AoEs? Oh, the one that they have to give up 30% damage on their Spiral-fletched Arrow (therefore severely reducing their kiting capabilities vs single targets) and use a tactic slot for? You seeing my point yet about no trade-off in exchange for the advantage? BTW, maybe someone can confirm this for me. Does the tactic that Engis (and IIRC Magus have similar) get in their Grenadier tree for +25% range on Grenadier skills also stack with this buff, actually giving them a 75% buff on several AoEs, not just 50%.

4) No, it does not. If you want to keep deploying new instant turrets that's a different matter. You gain the instant redeploy skill for your existing turret in T1. You can fight, reposition, and instantly deploy to maintain your buff and build back up to full in 16 seconds minus however many seconds you were out of your turrets radius for, it does not take 16 seconds to rebuild each time.

Shadow Warrior is not an AOE Class. It has a heal debuff, the best mobility of all RDPS along with SH, has auto attack on the move, and a devastating single-target line. It also has the potential to become a melee hybrid. I find it audacious that you would compare the Shadow Warrior's aoe with that of the magus, when the Sorcerer makes both pale in comparison to such a degree it isn't even funny.

If you want to fight seriously/6v6 with a magus (which I am trying to do with the new changes), you absolutely do need to use a tactic on the instasummon skill and to maintain the buff, so yes - from a competitive POV - it does cost a tactic.

Agree with Kragg. The tears that have come about, as a direct result of these two consistently underperforming classes being given a buff, are comical for the better part.

Those changes sound cool Aza.

[Halhammer]

All turrets or just the one that was destroyed?

Just the one destroyed, although I'm not 100% sure about self-destruct. Might've been all turrets in that case.

Agree with Kragg. The tears that have come about, as a direct result of these two consistently underperforming classes being given a buff, are comical for the better part.

This. Now all of a sudden ppl wanna nerf kegs? Seriously?

[roadkillrobin]

Any ideas on what the alternative pet buffs might be?

For 3rd path, no idea yet.
For 2nd path, likely fuse reduction - DoTs have reduced duration and tick interval.

3 path Increase the the target hit cap maybe