Saving Scenarios (the endangered species part of WAR)

[TenTonHammer]

No. Every scenario boils to simply rolling over the other team. You kill first, and cap the blag/bo/pick up ball when they're dead. Its how its always done. Only the noob plebs run around ghost capping while the other team farms them (and end up losing anyways).

Every instance of oRvR is the same, simply roll over the other smaller zerg, you kill first and cap what ever irrelevant BO when they're dead or retreating to another zone to cap empty keeps.

Its always how its done

Only noob plebs run around trying to ghost cap bo's while the other zergs or gank groups farm them (and end up losing anyways).


Generalizations is fun

[magter3001]

snip

Most of what you describe isn't being competitive, its called having logistics. When theres things such as guild/alliance chat it really isn't anything extraordinary.

What you describe as 'trying to pick the right place to fight' is known as funneling and doesn't really take all that much to do. Then you mash your AoE buttons... until one side dies. The players in this 24 man wb may be intimate with' the deepest intracaies of the little known workings of oRvR', and 'how to flip zones' and how to... keep your rands from dropping? Too bad they don't need to have hardy any knowledge of their class, they just need to know where their AoE buttons and AoE morale buttons are located. As stated earlier, anything that has an AoE component is much more useful than anything else you can do, and things become simplified. I really can't see how you can say '6v6 and 24v24 are equally competitive'.

I would strongly argue that finding the right place to fight is harder than it seems. You have to get all 24 people into the right place, be in the right formation, all in a short time frame. The best guilds moved with the fluidity of a 6 man and played with each other a lot. The reason these guilds would do that is because of their desire to win... which is competition. I'm not arguing that 24 mans know more about their classes, in fact I said 6 mans usually know more... but your idea that 24 mans are comprised of people who only press AoE buttons and morale buttons is unfounded. Your experience with guild WBs probably comprise with what you saw from here on RoR (most likely pugs) instead of how it was on live during the early days.

My guild on Live did everything for the desire to get to the city and raid our enemy's city. We played against very competitive 12 mans and other guild wbs. Competition is where you desire to be the best... and that is exactly what we wanted to be. I'm sure KO with their WB here on RoR wanted to be the best 24 man, otherwise they wouldn't bring so many BWs Same with Porn Factory (or whatever their name was).

I've seen a lot of casual 6 man guilds both on live and on ror... are they more competitive than a 24 man with every individual trying to push for a server first for RR80 or first successful fortress siege, let alone city siege

If you grab four 6 mans and put them in a warband, are they all of a sudden devoid of pressing anything but their AoE buttons?

[peterthepan3]

also the most repetitive, boring, and unbalanced. Some classes, (including my main) don't even get a sniff in your competitive 6v6. Even certain archetypes (rdps) hardly get a sniff over the preferred melee train. Whats the point of those other classes? Everyone has a roll in oRVR because since the scale of combat is so high you can hide deficiencies of certain classes through sheer numbers.

the only classes that can't really shine in a 6v6 are magi/engi. every other class can work in either a standard 2/2/2 or a 3/2/1 comp. i'm yet to see WHs, WLs, WEs, BGs, DPS AMs, DPS tanks etc have a place in a warband, so don't make out that WBs aren't without their FOTM meta too - because they are, and to a greater extent.

also please stop generalising all scens as pug stomps. i find it hard to believe you when you say you've done 6v6 with the 'best' yet somehow deliberately tar all scenarios with the same 'premade stomping ground' brush.

[roadkillrobin]

also the most repetitive, boring, and unbalanced. Some classes, (including my main) don't even get a sniff in your competitive 6v6. Even certain archetypes (rdps) hardly get a sniff over the preferred melee train. Whats the point of those other classes? Everyone has a roll in oRVR because since the scale of combat is so high you can hide deficiencies of certain classes through sheer numbers.

the only classes that can't really shine in a 6v6 are magi/engi. every other class can work in either a standard 2/2/2 or a 3/2/1 comp. i'm yet to see WHs, WLs, WEs, BGs, DPS AMs, DPS tanks etc have a place in a warband, so don't make out that WBs aren't without their FOTM meta too - because they are, and to a greater extent.

also please stop generalising all scens as pug stomps. i find it hard to believe you when you say you've done 6v6 with the 'best' yet somehow deliberately tar all scenarios with the same 'premade stomping ground' brush.

All classes have a spot and a good role in warbands except WL.

[Aethilmar]

also the most repetitive, boring, and unbalanced. Some classes, (including my main) don't even get a sniff in your competitive 6v6. Even certain archetypes (rdps) hardly get a sniff over the preferred melee train. Whats the point of those other classes? Everyone has a roll in oRVR because since the scale of combat is so high you can hide deficiencies of certain classes through sheer numbers.

the only classes that can't really shine in a 6v6 are magi/engi. every other class can work in either a standard 2/2/2 or a 3/2/1 comp. i'm yet to see WHs, WLs, WEs, BGs, DPS AMs, DPS tanks etc have a place in a warband, so don't make out that WBs aren't without their FOTM meta too - because they are, and to a greater extent.

also please stop generalising all scens as pug stomps. i find it hard to believe you when you say you've done 6v6 with the 'best' yet somehow deliberately tar all scenarios with the same 'premade stomping ground' brush.

All classes have a spot and a good role in warbands except WL.

If by "a spot" you mean stand around and do nothing except soak damage and hope for a heal until the door is down then, yes, tanks do have a spot in a warband. This is probably the number one reason SCs need to have equal importance because they give classes (tanks and to a lesser extent mdps) that have rather boring roles in RvR a chance to actually collect some renown.

Meanwhile, out of party healers and RDPS can just hot/dot their way to large purple numbers. It was like this during live. It is like this now in RoR. If they actually wanted to reward tanks for their "role" in oRvR they would get renown for damage mitigated much like healers get renown for healing.

P.S. WL are awesome at getting renown in oRvR just not in a warband. You get two WL hunting together and you can gank just about anyone in under 5 seconds....10 if they know how to fight back....15 if they are a tanky tank.

[roadkillrobin]

All classes have a spot and a good role in warbands except WL.

If by "a spot" you mean stand around and do nothing except soak damage and hope for a heal until the door is down then, yes, tanks do have a spot in a warband. This is probably the number one reason SCs need to have equal importance because they give classes (tanks and to a lesser extent mdps) that have rather boring roles in RvR a chance to actually collect some renown.

Meanwhile, out of party healers and RDPS can just hot/dot their way to large purple numbers. It was like this during live. It is like this now in RoR. If they actually wanted to reward tanks for their "role" in oRvR they would get renown for damage mitigated much like healers get renown for healing.

P.S. WL are awesome at getting renown in oRvR just not in a warband. You get two WL hunting together and you can gank just about anyone in under 5 seconds....10 if they know how to fight back....15 if they are a tanky tank.

Orvr is much more then just breaking down keep doors. If the defenders play it right and actually plays for zone controll rather then defensive ticks they get moast of the attacking realm to spread out and battle for BO's not the keep doors.
Everyone has a role in these fights.

Ganking soloers in RVR does very little damage to the zone controll. If even any at all. And WL completly lacks synnergy when fighting within a warband. They don't have any significant debuffs, cc or buffs that benfits the team in these kinda situation they just brings dps, and since BW does this job much better they get easily replaced.

WL can however find a spot in a flanking group that works together with the warband. While the Warband engage from the front the flanking group attacks from the rear and their main role is to take out the healers. This takes really good cordination between the warband and the flanking group but it's kinda dissregarded in the current game as moast 6man doesn't seem to wanna do oRVR and they also don't really seem intreasted in working with other warbands. I saw several small scale guilds do this on live, havn't seen it even once on this server.

[Aethilmar]

All classes have a spot and a good role in warbands except WL.

If by "a spot" you mean stand around and do nothing except soak damage and hope for a heal until the door is down then, yes, tanks do have a spot in a warband. This is probably the number one reason SCs need to have equal importance because they give classes (tanks and to a lesser extent mdps) that have rather boring roles in RvR a chance to actually collect some renown.

Meanwhile, out of party healers and RDPS can just hot/dot their way to large purple numbers. It was like this during live. It is like this now in RoR. If they actually wanted to reward tanks for their "role" in oRvR they would get renown for damage mitigated much like healers get renown for healing.

P.S. WL are awesome at getting renown in oRvR just not in a warband. You get two WL hunting together and you can gank just about anyone in under 5 seconds....10 if they know how to fight back....15 if they are a tanky tank.

Orvr is much more then just breaking down keep doors. If the defenders play it right and actually plays for zone controll rather then defensive ticks they get moast of the attacking realm to spread out and battle for BO's not the keep doors.
Everyone has a role in these fights.

Ganking soloers in RVR does very little damage to the zone controll. If even any at all. And WL completly lacks synnergy when fighting within a warband. They don't have any significant debuffs, cc or buffs that benfits the team in these kinda situation they just brings dps, and since BW does this job much better they get easily replaced.

WL can however find a spot in a flanking group that works together with the warband. While the Warband engage from the front the flanking group attacks from the rear and their main role is to take out the healers. This takes really good cordination between the warband and the flanking group but it's kinda dissregarded in the current game as moast 6man doesn't seem to wanna do oRVR and they also don't really seem intreasted in working with other warbands. I saw several small scale guilds do this on live, havn't seen it even once on this server.

MDPS roles in keep sieges (other than lock-pick takes) is to prevent reinforcements for long enough for the main warband to break down the keep door. RDPS role is to suppress keep defenses. Healers is to heal. Tanks are to man the ram and stand around looking good. After you get both keeps, then you start worrying about locking down the flags. If you have coordinated commanders they are jumping zones to try to keep the enemy off balance.

All that said....do the tank and mdps roles sounds super interesting? Do they sound super profitable in terms of character progression? No...they do not. At least mdps have a chance at some extra rewards for ganking. Tanks just mostly stand around and wait for the door. They may help with intercepting reinforcements, but they aren't particularly good at it compared to mdps.

Which takes us back to the original topic about SCs needing to be as rewarding as RvR. SCs reward tanks much more than RvR. And now that they reintroduced the advanced progression (RR41+) then tanks need a way to keep up with everyone else who have better options for renown and SCs are it.

And I say all this as a person who played from launch to close with a Swordmaster as a main but RR80+ with all 4 elf classes (and a few others thrown in for comparison but lower RR). And as a person who LOVES to RvR. I know how super-easy it was to gain RR on my SW, AM and WL(once he hit a gear threshold to gank effectively) compared to my SM.

[roadkillrobin]

MDPS roles in keep sieges (other than lock-pick takes) is to prevent reinforcements for long enough for the main warband to break down the keep door. RDPS role is to suppress keep defenses. Healers is to heal. Tanks are to man the ram and stand around looking good. After you get both keeps, then you start worrying about locking down the flags. If you have coordinated commanders they are jumping zones to try to keep the enemy off balance.

All that said....do the tank and mdps roles sounds super interesting? Do they sound super profitable in terms of character progression? No...they do not. At least mdps have a chance at some extra rewards for ganking. Tanks just mostly stand around and wait for the door. They may help with intercepting reinforcements, but they aren't particularly good at it compared to mdps.

Which takes us back to the original topic about SCs needing to be as rewarding as RvR. SCs reward tanks much more than RvR. And now that they reintroduced the advanced progression (RR41+) then tanks need a way to keep up with everyone else who have better options for renown and SCs are it.

And I say all this as a person who played from launch to close with a Swordmaster as a main but RR80+ with all 4 elf classes (and a few others thrown in for comparison but lower RR).

Scenarios are allready way to rewarding, you get emblems that you can use for BiS weapons, BiS armor and Potions.
There need to be rewards that reflects the population needed for the diferent aspects of the game or it's gonna hurt the population in the other ones. RVR doesn't work without a big poplulation hence it needs to be the moast rewarding one. Scenarios doesn't work without a decent population hence it needs to have decent rewards. PVE needs the least amount of population to work and therefor the rewards should reflect that.

I don't know many ORVR players who are really exited about keep seiges But it seems you think this is what ORVR is all about. It's not. It's about zone domination and beatng the other realm. It's extremly fun if the other realm actually try to be competative and work for the same goal. When this happens it's much less about keeps seiges but controll of routes and BO's. Classes roles in seiges is not what you use for a warband composition. You compose based on focused area utillity. This is the best way to combat large number of opponets, It's also the best way to counter groups trying to do the same. When the other realm just turtle inside the keeps in hope of getting a sucessfull keep defence tick that is when boring Doorhammer happens. If they actually tried to fight for the long term goal by retaking BO's and force the zerg out all over the map is when fun ORVR actually take place.

[TenTonHammer]

BiS armor? BiS weapons? Are you for real?

How many times in lower tiers did we see purple weapons out class the sc emblem weapons? And last I checked these scenario weapons couldn't compare to the stuff we get down the line from dungons and seiges

Likewise SC armor sets are not BiS, they are sets designed for particular playstyles

Meaning if I want a def tank set and not the dps oriented SC set, then I need to grind out emblems in the RvR lakes irregardless of wether I like oRvR or not

I don't know what your going on about but rvr IS about keep seiges because that is how you achive "zone domination"

I.e locking a zone

You can have fun blocking off all the routes and Bo's and stuff if you want but at the end of the day, the faction that locks the keep controls the zone

[roadkillrobin]

BiS armor? BiS weapons? Are you for real?

How many times in lower tiers did we see purple weapons out class the sc emblem weapons? And last I checked these scenario weapons couldn't compare to the stuff we get down the line from dungons and seiges

Likewise SC armor sets are not BiS, they are sets designed for particular playstyles

Meaning if I want a def tank set and not the dps oriented SC set, then I need to grind out emblems in the RvR lakes irregardless of wether I like oRvR or not

I don't know what your going on about but rvr IS about keep seiges because that is how you achive "zone domination"

I.e locking a zone

The weapons are BiS. Even the t3 weapons are better then the inf rewards in t4 for casters. The reason the purples and blue weapons were better in t2 and t3 was coz of the lvl cap was higher then it was meant to be. The pruple items were lvl 35 and emblem rewards were 29.

The emblem armor are best in slot for that playstyle, they are even BiS period for some classes.

You've said multiple times that you don't like ORVR and don't play it. So I understand that you don't get how it works.
It's not about Keeps Seiges, They are a part of it yes. But it's not about em.