[Implemented] Crimson Death (duration)

[Shadowgurke]

Spoiler:

First of all, the only I was trying to make that the BG does have a lot of utility. Obviously it doesn't have the best in every regard.

The important part is unique utility. It doesn't matter how much stuff a BG has that every other mainstay in a destro group already has.

But the outgoing healing debuff from choppa isn't even close as good as the BG one. (Requires Greatweapon, 30s cd versus 0 cd). In

My point was not that the BG healdebuff is bad, it's just that if you really want that HD then getting a Choppa is still the better option. Yes the HD is worse, but you are not gimping yourself as much

knockback/knockdown: Getting hate and blocking is no problem at all for the BG. You will have full hatred in a matter of seconds

It is big enough to notice. You need about 10 seconds into a fight to get enough hated. By this time any other tank has punted twice already. Not to mention every time you die you are back to 0. Considering the average length of engagements 10s can be way too late already

and you will easily have a block every couple of seconds from guard damage.

Imagine you are engaging with pull + kd: No block since you are not fighting. Imagine a target is running away: no block because you are not getting attacked. Imagine you needing a crucial KD but you just happen to not block for 2 seconds. I would rather have a 3 s KD that I can press on demand than a scaling 5s KD on block

The cooldown is a fair point, but as you mainly want to knock tanks away out of guard range, 15 seconds would be required to knock them away on cooldown considering the immunity.

Punting offensively means you punt their tanks away. If they parry your punt that means 20s of nothing.
Punting defensively is just as important. Punting away a slayer when he is killing your mdps gives your group a lot of space. Again, 20s cooldown hurts so much.

The AoE slow isn't too good, but neither is that of the BO as it requires a tactic

Requiring a tactic is not bad per se. BG tactics are often underwhelming and you'd rather have a tactic for AoE snare than having to spec full middle.

and having to spam that as your gud plan.

Doesn't really matter. Big swing synergizes very well with statsteal and spamming it doesn't hurt your dps or anything. Plus, uncleansable by groupcleanse. That is just such a huge upside

The difference between a 3s KD and a 5s KD is mostly death but no big deal there.

I killed many targets in a 3s KD when playing with a group. 3s KD with 10s CD > 5s KD with 20s CD. If the enemy doesn't bring you down significantly in 3s, they won't make it in 5s either.

Edited by Penril - Omnislashing.

[zabis]

Personally, I refuse to play 2h, and a change that seems to be this minor will not change my playstyle, but I see this as being similar to the change in the WP detaunt. It should be changed temporarily and we can then see the outcome. If it needs to be tweaked afterward, so be it, but setting Crimson Death to 100% uptime on a "two-week" trial period couldn't hurt too much.

[Penril]

Guys, stop with the omnislashing. If you dont know what that is, read the rules.

Other than that, this is an interesting discussion.

[Daknallbomb]

did i see something wrong ?
was not
The question posed in this thread is: should Crimson Death's duration be increased to 10 seconds?
the Topic ? or wy talking about all the other things and role of bg and so on ? iam a bit confused .

I say yes Change it to 10 sec to Balance a bit to dirty tricks etc

[th3gatekeeper]

Black Guard needing a buff in utility? It has a strong armor debuff, wounds debuff, crit chance debuff, healing debuff, block/parry debuff, longest knockdown in game, longest knockback in game, strong AP drain, AoE slow, several minor stat buffs/debuffs. And if you go Crimson Death basically a 5% crit chance increase, although you could argue you can get more value out of the 10% if you burst in those 5 seconds time. I'm not against a little buff on Crimson Death, as it is by far the least played tank and in 6v6 scenarios for a reason. But you cannot say the BG lacks utility. The problem is more that a lot of the utility is nullified by mostly the Marauder.

I have to say though that I don't really get the thread, looking at balance from such an isolated point of view, but I guess it's also just a little buff anyway.

Zumos here did the fallacy of combining ALL the BGs into 1 "super BG" - this type of thing happens when players look at a class and list off all the possible stuff it can spec into, but several things are mutually exclusive to others.

And as TenTon posts below and we all agree upon "a lot of the utility is nullified by mostly the Marauder."

Armor, tough and wounds; higher version debuff provided by mara

Super punt; chosen has one with higher uptime and no requirement of high career resource, and its not the longest knock back it is just core and needs no tactic

KD; once again, require near max hate and furthermore is only accessible to the SnB playstye

AoE snare; BO provides better one with lower CD

Minor stat buffs: only Str, Tough, WP; Chosen can consistently buff and debuff the former 2 and BO can buff every stat for your entire group bar wounds with da biggest

A large majority of the things BG brings to the table, other classes bring better versions of

While buffing uptime on Crimson Death would be a big + to the class.... there is too much overlap with the Mara atm to where you dont need the BG if you have a Mara.... I think overall THATS the bigger crux for the class...

Looking at its mirrors. What does the IB offer that the WL doesnt have? Seems like there is less overlap on the order mirrors... Maybe the solutions is to swap around 1-2 utility factors on either Mara or BG so that BG doesnt get mooted out with a mara in the group?

[th3gatekeeper]

did i see something wrong ?
was not
The question posed in this thread is: should Crimson Death's duration be increased to 10 seconds?
the Topic ? or wy talking about all the other things and role of bg and so on ? iam a bit confused .

I say yes Change it to 10 sec to Balance a bit to dirty tricks etc

The issue is BG/Mara presents a major class balance issue. The fact that one moots out the other. So a buff is fine and im all for it as a temp fix, but in the long run the CD increase WILL impact the ability to make changes later, so they go hand in hand IMO.

Also, dirty tricks on KOTBS needs adjusting too IMO....

[Daknallbomb]

hm still dont understand But a bg is a tank and a mara is a mdps and in not all favors there is some mara in the Group or iam so wrong now ?

*edit* i mean the question is make Duration from 5 to 10 from crimson death no other question like how make bg more usefully or something

[TenTonHammer]

hm still dont understand But a bg is a tank and a mara is a mdps and in not all favors there is some mara in the Group or iam so wrong now ?

*edit* i mean the question is make Duration from 5 to 10 from crimson death no other question like how make bg more usefully or something

What thing bg brings to the group such as its wounds, armor and toughness debuffs mara gives better versions of

as such thier is no need to bring bg for those debuffs and so you can easily take a BO and chosen instead becuase your not loosing access to those debuffs

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

Do you guys think a better solution would be to just make spiteful slam MORE like Cave-In?

Cave in (IB):
- scales damage based on grudges - KD is the same (5 sec) at every level.

Spiteful slam (BG):
- Damage fixed, scales KC based on hate.

While I get we dont want mirros to be exactly the same... I think the KD is PART of the issue with the different here as its very coveted...

So couldnt one solution be to just make SS not scale the KD on hate but rather the damage? I mean thats one of the biggest contentions with BG versus IB correct?

Spoiler by Penril - We are NOT discussing IB/BG KDs. Even if we where, you should learn the class before posting (IB doesn't have a 5 sec KD).

Same thing to everyone else mentioning Maras. Stick to the issue: are you in favor or against giving CD a 10 sec duration?

[bloodi]

....

Mate, this is about Crisom Death duration, nothing more, nothing less. You will have to talk about all that elsewhere.

That and cave in is a 3 secs kd. At every level or grudge, the damage is what happens in 5 secs.