(Mythic) origins of balance

[Razid1987]

When facing more enemies than your own numbers bombing is good way to go. But for equal numbers /even wb v wb/ ST is quite superior. So for the sake of the argument ST wb would win vs AOE wb everyday. And from that perspective ST greenskins wb would be pretty competative since they get great tools to be

I'll believe it when I see it.

[roadkillrobin]

all the AoE clears Challanges in like 1 sec so keeping up the melee train more then 10 sec's is close to impossible.
AoE is also the best way to deal with tanks coz then they take guard dmg + AoE dmg.

I've seen it happen tho. Really cordinated ST assist wb bringn down a uncordinated scrub bomb wb. But thats pretty much the only time. When both are of equal skill the bomb wb needs to screw up really bad for that to happen.

[Penril]

all the AoE clears Challanges in like 1 sec so keeping up the melee train more then 10 sec's is close to impossible.
AoE is also the best way to deal with tanks coz then they take guard dmg + AoE dmg.

I've seen it happen tho. Really cordinated ST assist wb bringn down a uncordinated scrub bomb wb. But thats pretty much the only time. When both are of equal skill the bomb wb needs to screw up really bad for that to happen.

Wait for T4 and Terrible Embrace. "That BW over there is doing all the damage, pulling in 3... 2... 1..."

[Razid1987]

all the AoE clears Challanges in like 1 sec so keeping up the melee train more then 10 sec's is close to impossible.
AoE is also the best way to deal with tanks coz then they take guard dmg + AoE dmg.

I've seen it happen tho. Really cordinated ST assist wb bringn down a uncordinated scrub bomb wb. But thats pretty much the only time. When both are of equal skill the bomb wb needs to screw up really bad for that to happen.

But doesn't that just prove that anything organised can in fact bring down an un-organised wb?
Or in other words, that organised wbs > pug wbs (Exaggeration, I know, but the logic is the same).

Wait for T4 and Terrible Embrace. "That BW over there is doing all the damage, pulling in 3... 2... 1...".

Well, with AoE CC, such as stagger, and immunities all over place... Good luck, I guess?
Also, Resolute Defense might make that pretty hard to pull off, imo.

[Penril]

Well, with AoE CC, such as stagger, and immunities all over place... Good luck, I guess?
Also, Resolute Defense might make that pretty hard to pull off, imo.

As long as you didn't have a punt-crazy Black Orc giving away free immunities to all order and their mothers, pulling someone with Terrible Embrace wasn't that hard. There is a reason why order hated it so much.

RD has a 2 minute CD at best... if the BW uses it and manages to escape, you can try pulling him again 30 seconds later.

I'm not saying that ST>>>AoE. But there are ways for a ST group to counter a bomb group. Pull was just one of many.

[Razid1987]

As long as you didn't have a punt-crazy Black Orc giving away free immunities to all order and their mothers, pulling someone with Terrible Embrace wasn't that hard. There is a reason why order hated it so much.

I'm always surprised at how often pugs give people random immunities, and pugs do always follow the organised wbs, sadly lol. Also magnet-magi/engis gives even more immunities.
Mara-Pulls wasn't a thing / meta back when I played on KN, but I can imagine it can work, for sure. But wouldn't Fetch do pretty much the same thing? I mean, this wouldn't be something exclusive to Destro?
Also, 65 ft isn't very long. You'd have to be up almost in the face of the tanks.

RD has a 2 minute CD at best... if the BW uses it and manages to escape, you can try pulling him again 30 seconds later.

True, but again, I feel like the immunity up-time seems to be really high in ORvR.

[footpatrol2]

So these racial groups are bomb groups and it starts at 12 man. The Bomb group adds protection and is offensive. After the bomb group is made you start expanding onto the other spec's with your 3rd group and 4 group to finish the warband. Granted a lot of abilites have been hacked up because the player base didn't understand or didn't catch on to this.

Super quick run through.

Dwarves 12 man bomb. Rift/napalm. The entire group sits in the napalm as protection. Cycle shatter limbs for protection. Cycle at the time mountain spirit which was 30 sec's but yout giving up a morale push but that could be ok to still pop off mountain spirit. Pop Armored plating if damage got too tough. Engie morale 4's are not amazing so its fine to pop engie morale's. Grenadier engie takes damage boost close range. So many dwarven abilities stack for this style of play. General idea out last the opponent for a crazy Morale push of roughly 10k dmg. If your that close its easy to switch guard and oathfriend abilities hit everyone that are AoE. This type of play explains why grimnir's fury exists only really to be used in a warband setting.

Chaos 12 man bomb. Rift/mist. Everyone sits in mist. If you come close your completely debuff'd by aura's. Guards on zealots and float some guards to magus. AoE pull. 2 Monstrocity marauders built as tanks if you have more groups you can ease up on how tanky they have to be and add more dps. Rift from magus. AoE knockdown from monstrocity marauder. Wrecking ball AoE Morale drain/AoE ap drain. Zealots winds of insanity used if your taking too much damage you have access to two of em and more if your going for a warband. If you have a warband the safest place for your healers is in the bomb. Since chaos bomb is slow moving you stack the warband of healers in the bomb. You can constantly cycle winds of insanity with only a 2 sec downtime if 4 dark rites zealots are taken in the warband. Winds of insanity would bypass immunities. Chaos can also build a 10k dmg morale dump

Greenskins previously explained on a 12 man bomb. Add more spec's that compliment bomb with grp 3 and 4. The Greenskinz bomb is Mobile unlike dwarves or chaos. Bomb is Melee train and your healers are protected by a sea of snare's. IF your healer is killed by a team of WH no big deal because you can instant rez him. After bomb group has sufficient healing start taking path of da green shaman's to even have your healing assisting in your bomb which does works well with chop faster. This gives you access to instant rezing while healing which counters assassin squads. I'd recommend not doing path of da green until sufficient healing is accomplished.

12 man High elves bomb. The HE group takes a dump amount of skill which seems about right for elves. Haven't completely figured it out but here is a go. The Warband/HE 12 man playstyle is Kite with your dumb amount of AoE snares till 2 of the SM from each group has morale 2 wings of heaven. This can be pumped faster then normal with boon of hysh from AM. Similar to greenskinz but you can place your bomb. They have a Mobile Bomb. Bomb grp consists of 2 path of hunter WL. 2 isha AM's. 4 Vaul AM and 2 kaine SM's and 2 hoeth sm's. 12 man bomb HE has access to 8 AoE snare's from AM's and 4 instant rez's and 4 AoE snare's from Wings of Heaven. Pounce used too do a good amount of AoE damage. SM's guard WL's and use wings of heaven on bomb to keep op with WL. AM's build morale fast for 2 SM's to get access to wings faster through Boon of Hysh tactic. You can bomb every 30 sec's with this. On bomb coordinated Pounce + 2 Wings of Heaven + Whisper winds + AoE spirit resist debuff + whirling Axe + spamming Energy of Vaul until whisper is over + a couple Blinding lights from Am's for protection. After bomb is done Get behind your wall of Snares. After bomb is created add more classes to compliment bomb and protect backline. All groups have access to whisper winds so a coordinated whisper push or a staggered whisper push can be done.

I don't need to go into how DE and Empire works for establishing a bomb group. After the initial bomb group is made you can start adding 3rd and 4 grps for flavor either further increasing the damage of a bomb group or adding a single target 12 man group.

Each of these racial groups have a coordinated morale push that can do near 10k damage. Know also that the racial groups were able to gain 25% more morale then non racial groups.

The players Asked mythic to create a game that was about RvR. How do you interact with RvR? In the lakes. But how? In a Warband. The game was based on racial warbands that you could do coordinated morale pushes with. Most if not all of these racial warbands could do 10k damage of roughly 30 feet with just a 12 man. If you expand on this to a 24 man. you can do 10k morale pushes every 30 sec's.

Mythic misjudged how the players would interact within the game. Mythic misjudged the lack of coordination and orginization that the playerbase was willing to participate in. This game is basically the King of PVP and organized play. The majority of the player base never got past the design building of a 6 man. They would just take a 6 man and expand the design from there. Players were not thinking on how to create a warband which has a different design viewpoint. One guy dieing doesn't matter in a warband. Hence instant rezing.

[Penril]

Nah Fetch wasn't nearly as effective because it was tied to the pet. When you saw a pet charging the backlines by itself you knew it was trying to pull someone. You could easily counter it by KD the pet (with a KD or with a punt). Roots worked too.

The only counter to Terrible Embrace was having one of your tanks interrupting the mara with Taunt. Or just bunny hop and hope TE failed (it sometimes bugged if the cast time ended with your target mid air or something like that). TE>Fetch.

[Razid1987]

Nah Fetch wasn't nearly as effective because it was tied to the pet. When you saw a pet charging the backlines by itself you knew it was trying to pull someone. You could easily counter it by KD the pet (with a KD or with a punt). Roots worked too.

The only counter to Terrible Embrace was having one of your tanks interrupting the mara with Taunt. Or just bunny hop and hope TE failed (it sometimes bugged if the cast time ended with your target mid air or something like that). TE>Fetch.

Sure, but wouldn't that be the same for Order, though? Just nuke the Marauder? Or KD / KB / Silence him? Or how about just simply push the whole order wb on to him? Would make his pull pointless.

[footpatrol2]

I've done a 10k dmg morale push with dwarves. It wipes everything away.