Return of Reckoning

Atropik wrote:

Tklees wrote: Burst in common specs is most likely in favor of WH as the spec I linked for them is common, if not my preferred due to it being unreliable. While the common WE spec, Witchbrew, provides better sustained damage.

Why, God, WHY? WB is not a nuke, u cannot crit 2k+ damage right after stun comes over with WB, like with EW. It is a self buff for some additional noncrit damage for the next few hits. You need to ern some frenzies somewhere then spend them(say bb to Frenzied Mayhem), then go restealth, and only then you ll get some more sustained damage, the same time WH can just stay the place and shoot EW twise. Better sustained, YES!

We all allmost forget about WB existance, but then comes Bretin and she showes us bloody massacre, and we get impressed. But in fact WB costs nothing to EW, or OyK, or BAL, Bretin used it cause she needs healdebuff and she got nothing to use instead, and she killed all those guys cause she has Camoran and Heaton guarding and healing. And absolutelly not because WB provides damage. Funnel Power also provides damage, lets ask BWs what deals more damage? Boiling Blood or Funnel Power?

Tklees wrote: Please like I asked do enlighten us then on your opinion.

I have no opinion. I thought senior balance moderator, who knows almost everything about wh/we should have an opinion about wh/we balance. But all you can say "use MT and input some more points for 3d mastery tree". Okay then, seems WEs burst isnt higher at all.

1. You seem pretty upset about something. I think you should relax its a video game.
2. I can't really understand your posts logic. You are completely ignoring everything a WE brings to the table besides Witchbrew and just saying Exit Wound crits for 2k so its better. If you would like to prove a point in terms of balance facts and numbers are needed to support your points. Not just words.
3. As a Balance Moderator, my opinion is no better than your own as has been stated many times at this point. My opinion on balance of WH/WE is that of they are the single best mirror in game and are balanced. That is my opinion. Just because it does not match your own does not make it incorrect.
4. If you would like to have a say on the topic of WH/WE balance I would love to hear some actual suggestions.

2. My post logic is rather simple, im trying to find some proves, that WE has more burst then WH. And im ignoring things like:
- MT (no one uses MT instead of OyK/WB + no free tactic slot for tactic with 1 min CD at minimum),
- WB (cause it is not about burst),
- Taste of blood (i dont like to be hurt playing WE, and being hurt im usually dead),
- Frenzied Mayhem (cause Brute Force gives you more damage), maybe later in t4, let FM be the first arguement,
- Kiss Procs,
- PA (yes, PA deals more damage, but only about 10% harder then AW, and 10 sec CD, it is not an advantage)
- Wrecking Pains (better spend GCD for AW),
- Lets talk about WH?
cause all this really amazing abilities gives almost no burst bonuses to WE comparing to WH. You need numbers or facts? I dont have them, WHO is only a video game and i dont want to work in it, so just my words. But I will happily believe your words if you say AW deals 1000 damage while Torment deals 800.

3. WH/WE are absolutely not the best mirror, WE much stronger before lvl 30, 30 - 39/50 or 40/40 almost equal and then WH can just toy with WE till 81+, they are different and they are not balanced at all. WE feels a bit better cause there is no enemy goblins or maras, but having 2 RKD+Unstopable Pounce Masters on other side, im not so sure.

4. And i will make a suggestion, like "make IP core tactic for both classes", but we need to get lvl 40/50 at first for such kind of suggestions.

Aww man... I was three behind tk on that race too 100 list. Bummer.

I have an excellent suggestion for buff WH\WE: Block spinning while lying on the ground. Terribly annoying.

P.S. Vote for Declare Anathema\Agile Escape in T3.

Scrilian wrote:What I would rly want to see is that Feinted Positioning cooldown reduced from 60 to 40 seconds

TACTIC: Swift Movements

First Treachery item you can take. Drops it *by* 40 sec, dn *to 20 sec*. As FP has a 10 sec CD, **that means 50% of any PvP is potentially uptime on FP.**

Unless that was changed. Have not logged into game in a month or so as have been busy.

Atropik wrote:Unstopable Pounce Masters

I've yet to see a discussion about a Destro-class that didn't eventually involve White Lions pouncing as an argument for one thing or another.

My suggestions are: stealth increased to 1 min, keep cooldown 30sec, remove gcd from bullets/poisons. "For T4: tactic swift pursuit: add 25% run speed not only to fleet footed but also to stealth. This will make the tactic more worth to waste a slot for and would be a more viable gap closer." I just saw that WH has no such tactic, only sigil of sigmar ability so nevermind this suggestion or maybe you have a better idea :/

Nemoel wrote:My suggestions are: stealth increased to 1 min, keep cooldown 30sec, remove gcd from bullets/poisons. For T4: tactic swift pursuit: add 25% run speed not only to fleet footed but also to stealth. This will make the tactic more worth to waste a slot for and would be a more viable gap closer.

and remove stealth ap consumption

I think that while dots are visable on the mini... an increase to stealth time would really be an ideal little fix.

Atropik wrote:2. My post logic is rather simple, im trying to find some proves, that WE has more burst then WH. And im ignoring things like:
- MT (no one uses MT instead of OyK/WB + no free tactic slot for tactic with 1 min CD at minimum),
- WB (cause it is not about burst),
- Taste of blood (i dont like to be hurt playing WE, and being hurt im usually dead),
- Frenzied Mayhem (cause Brute Force gives you more damage), maybe later in t4, let FM be the first arguement,
- Kiss Procs,
- PA (yes, PA deals more damage, but only about 10% harder then AW, and 10 sec CD, it is not an advantage)
- Wrecking Pains (better spend GCD for AW),
- Lets talk about WH?
cause all this really amazing abilities gives almost no burst bonuses to WE comparing to WH. You need numbers or facts? I dont have them, WHO is only a video game and i dont want to work in it, so just my words. But I will happily believe your words if you say AW deals 1000 damage while Torment deals 800.

3. WH/WE are absolutely not the best mirror, WE much stronger before lvl 30, 30 - 39/50 or 40/40 almost equal and then WH can just toy with WE till 81+, they are different and they are not balanced at all. WE feels a bit better cause there is no enemy goblins or maras, but having 2 RKD+Unstopable Pounce Masters on other side, im not so sure.

4. And i will make a suggestion, like "make IP core tactic for both classes", but we need to get lvl 40/50 at first for such kind of suggestions.

To me. It sounds like you are talking about balance outside of a group. Because in one you wouldn't be saying things like.
" I don't like being hurt so I don't use taste for blood"- it's one of your best tactics and when you're in group its a must as its pretty much a free 10% damage bonus.
"Wracking Pains is a waste of a GCD"- I can't say enough how much a long dot, that reduces my targets toughness and weapon skill, and covers up your heal debuff with another cleanse is not a waste of a GCD and you should be using it after every opener.
" Witchbrew is useless"- used in conjunction with other abilities this makes everything you use better. It procs on every ability and AA, it adds damage to each and in T4 the damage is enough when added to the ability or Auto attacks damage to represent the ability criting. So if you AW doesn't crit and hits for 1k its OK because WB adds 6-800 to make up for it, that doesn't even cover if it does crit. Adding that flat, and better, due to it being spirit instead of physical, damage to attacks is extremely useful due to less mitigation and when it procs quickly, (AW, Auto, AW, Auto, Auto) all within 2-4 seconds that can be better than Exit Wound. 5x500 is 2500. That's your low end damage from WB and it is more than EW and its guaranteed. Unike an ability that could not crit, could be parried, etc
3. At 40/80. Where the game is balanced. Not before. Not in t3. Not in t2. These classes are the singles best mirror in game. Mirror=different but equal. WH has an extra defense tool in RB and slightly better finishers. WE has more synergy in groups due to death reaper m3, solid none physical damage, WP and WB, which work great when assisting, and a bit more control on when thier burst, although lower than WHs but more reliable, will be delivered.
I don't see how RKD and "Unstoppable pounce masters?" Matter in a group evaluation of WH vs WE this also points towards a comparison of them in 1v1 for me which is not where balance is looked at.
4. I can tell you now WH/WE will never get IP/FC core. It makes no sense and would make them the strongest mdps in game, mainly WE who would then be able to freely slot tactics like swift pursuit and have a charge on the class that is not supposed to have one all the time due to stealth being their gap closer.

I hope this clarifies some of these points for you.