Return of Reckoning

Did I read that correctly ?

Int and crit would count towards healing contributions if in tranquility?

If you do that there is no need to change the charge count from 5 to 3 then, as the main reason dps ams don't heal is due to their lack of healing power, and like wise for healing ams to dps.

Azarael wrote:Honestly, for these classes I was really thinking of using the mechanic to solve their MAD problem.

MAD is one of the core problems for hybrid or lifetap play, for AM/GS the mechanic is clearly the solution.

Azarael wrote: What I'd have proposed would have been reducing the steps to 3 maximum on either side, changing the spells to perform a shift instead of a consume

This would depend on the desired ratio of heal:damage casts for Isha and damage:heal for Asuryan. With 5 steps and 100% consume the ratio is 5:1. Shift adds a lot of freedom to hover at high mechanic, if you want to alternate casts. Vaul is a special case as it could really play into the mechanic, weaving willpower heals in with lifetaps.

Azarael wrote:...removing or nerfing the existing benefits if required and changing the mechanic so that as long as you are casting a spell aligned with the side of the mechanic that you have points on, your magical or healing stats, whichever are higher, contribute to the scaling. So an Archmage stacking Int would cast his heals off his Int and Magic Power bonus instead of his Willpower and Healing Power bonus, using his Magic crit if it's higher than his Healing crit as long as he is in the Tranquility region.

Could just do a +willpower equal to % of int per point of force, +int equal to % of will per point of tranquility. 100% at max steps. (Can include the other stats too).

Azarael wrote:The other thing that I'd propose, to ensure that heal AM and Shammy don't feel pressured to use their mechanic on damage they don't really want to apply, is to either increase the lifetap HP steal % whe allies are the target (while reducing it against self) or scale the power of lifetaps against targets other than the Archmage with mechanic stacks.

This is a good change as it also props up the Vaul playstyle.

Vaul challenges:
* Perception: The options are still seen as heal vs DPS rather than Isha vs Vaul vs Asuryan. Even supportive posts ask the question "how much healing should a DPS AM do?" Lifetap healing is not seen or evaluated as a separate category to be balanced as a third playstyle.
* Risk vs reward. Lets be clear, Vaul has similar survivability to Isha (not good) which is miles better than melee lifetap. They do share other problems though.
* Increased level of micromanagement, monitoring enemy and friendly target etc.
* Tanks, detaunts and defensive abilities preventing lifetap heals.
* Vaul heals are single target. You can either build on this as a niche or expand the AOE options. AOE would help with the micromanagement, either through changes to the filler lifetap Balance Essence (like WP Simar's Radiance) or through Arcing Power (but check the numbers or it is just an engineer keg).
* MAD: Covered by the mechanic discussion. With the right mechanic changes, gaps in the Vaul toolbox can be filled with Isha spells.

Landaren wrote:Did I read that correctly ?

Int and crit would count towards healing contributions if in tranquility?

If you do that there is no need to change the charge count from 5 to 3 then, as the main reason dps ams don't heal is due to their lack of healing power, and like wise for healing ams to dps.

You mean have a mechanic that you need to work your ass off for when RP and Zealot can do the same with just a abillity push, sounds fair...or not.

Nameless wrote:Cos class that do both good healing and dps with one spec at same time should not be possible and if you do both roles subpar you will be just substituted with class that do better at his main role

Look more into what the mechanic would do.

If this mechanic were implemented, you would have two choices for how to spec in main stats: either for Intelligence or for Willpower. Whichever you choose, that becomes your primary association. You can play either completely towards your primary association or use the mechanic to dip into your other one, but the mechanic ensures that you cannot effectively play in the other assocation for long periods because you will run out of points and lose your mechanic stats.

As I said in the WP thread, it is absolutely fine that a class have the ability to use abilities and cast spells at full power AS LONG AS there is another limiter in place. The mechanic is that limiter. Having it set to 3 instead of 5 also ensures that players can't preload as much and need to keep twisting between one side and the other.

roadkillrobin wrote:An abillity that would alow us to swap Mechanic Points without GCD would solve alot of problems. And it's probobly the least amount of work the Devs need to do aswell.

I will do my absolute best to block any attempt to change the mechanic into something that violates its original intent. Just letting you know. Zealot and RP are already pure healbot classes. We don't need any more.

Sigismund wrote:This would depend on the desired ratio of heal:damage casts for Isha and damage:heal for Asuryan. With 5 steps and 100% consume the ratio is 5:1. Shift adds a lot of freedom to hover at high mechanic, if you want to alternate casts. Vaul is a special case as it could really play into the mechanic, weaving willpower heals in with lifetaps.

What I want is to find a point where the mechanic has some advantage, but not so high that the classes can wreck people alone. DPS AM's heals and healing AM's damage should be assist and justify their place over a pure healer or pure DPS.

Sigismund wrote:Could just do a +willpower equal to % of int per point of force, +int equal to % of will per point of tranquility. 100% at max steps. (Can include the other stats too).

Yep, that also works. It should always be 100% though, regardless of steps. See my post in Grace WP topic regarding necessity of equal stats for both aspects.

The Vaul aspect indeed needs more thinking, but I'd be happy as an initial step to give the mechanic some decent use.

the difference with wp/dok is that shammy/am do magic damages and they also have ST debuff of aura value, dots can reach high valus if spec into, the dps they do and the cover they do for other dots is alredy high enough.
They do not need a damage boost as long you make their meccanic viable they will always be rdps that can also heal, which mean they are alredy better than wp/dok as they can play more safe.
Also boost their stats contribution in any way would just make them able to have with less itiemization better heals and better damages in proportion. Meccanic should make em able to space between offensive and healing, which does not mean they have to do both very good. That concern personal build or if aftrer the meccanic changes those are subpar you could also boost them.
Mastery points are there for a reason and being heals all on 1 path you can really easily double master.
Which is different for rune and zealot that have everything split in 3 mastery.

Azarael wrote:The Vaul aspect indeed needs more thinking, but I'd be happy as an initial step to give the mechanic some decent use.

That would be a good start. Vaul would be able to mix lifetaps and willpower heals. With that basic toolset established you would then be able to see where the gaps were and what numbers needed adjusting.

I think getting Vaul up to scratch is an easier proposition than Grace. Vaul just needs lifetap healing to be more viable, it doesn't have the added pressure of making it work 5ft from the enemy melee train.

Unless I misunderstood the only dps boost would be in for the healing AM and only for short periods of time ie 3 casts if they were to use all the force built up. Let's be honest here a healing AM rarely has the time to stop throw out 3 dps spells and continue healing. A 3 GCD time period is enough time that some just died if the healing AM stopped healing that long.

Dps AM wouldn't really see a dps boost in his suggestion but they would have small periods of better heals to assist the healers.

Azarael wrote:Honestly, for these classes I was really thinking of using the mechanic to solve their MAD problem. What I'd have proposed would have been reducing the steps to 3 maximum on either side, changing the spells to perform a shift instead of a consume, removing or nerfing the existing benefits if required and changing the mechanic so that as long as you are casting a spell aligned with the side of the mechanic that you have points on, your magical or healing stats, whichever are higher, contribute to the scaling. So an Archmage stacking Int would cast his heals off his Int and Magic Power bonus instead of his Willpower and Healing Power bonus, using his Magic crit if it's higher than his Healing crit as long as he is in the Tranquility region.

The other thing that I'd propose, to ensure that heal AM and Shammy don't feel pressured to use their mechanic on damage they don't really want to apply, is to either increase the lifetap HP steal % whe allies are the target (while reducing it against self) or scale the power of lifetaps against targets other than the Archmage with mechanic stacks.

This suggestion seem to mostly buff the dps Shaman/AM, which I guess is no surprise as the mechanic already kind of works for them. Allowing them to cast a heal with full conversion seems to powerfull in 1vs1. The mechanic is useless for pure healers and unless the lifetap heals are greatly improved, like beeing the best heal to cast most of the time when you have filled the mechanic, this change would only buff speccs which does not need it.

Azarael wrote:
What I want is to find a point where the mechanic has some advantage, but not so high that the classes can wreck people alone. DPS AM's heals and healing AM's damage should be assist and justify their place over a pure healer or pure DPS.

AM damage is in a good place I think, as well as the utility they can bring to a group my only gripe being all of their debuffs and buffs are essentially worthless. Shaman healdebuff need a serious rework and then I think it will be at least on par with AM in terms of group setting usefulness.

The problem I seem to see when I run in a 3-2-1 group is my ability to heal either single target or AoE is limited to either throwing a weak HoT on someone, Using group heal at 5 mechanic every ~10 seconds, and a very sad and weak DoT leech. The only time I feel my healing is of any real use it M2 group heal spam in situations where one healer is for whatever reason not able to help the group for a short period of time. And remember all of these things aside from the leech are eating into my ability to assist the DPS In the group.

The mechanic change as you proposed will be nice but, now I don't see it solving really any problems. We will still be doing no real meaningful healing just more frequent fluff. I think the most important changes should come via changes to the leech HoT, balance essence/ I'll take that, and the 13 pt leech for each class. For the latter, the problem is we don't have enough points to get it with all the necessary utility. Making puddle core, or possibly swapping the leech with the silence in the trees could alleviate that. Not sure how some people would feel about losing that silence for the AoE leech tho.

Leech changes will also of course make the mechanic worth using for healing archmages as well, because that GCD is going towards something that has the potential to do meaningful healing instead of terrible fluff damage that is susceptible to cleanse anyways.


I'm also interested in where you think the hybrid AM/shaman's place is in the meta should be compared to grace WP/DoK. And are these the only "hybrid" classes? Or is there any plans to create other hybrids, maybe like DPS tanks that play a different role from def tanks etc...

Nekkma wrote: This suggestion seem to mostly buff the dps Shaman/AM, which I guess is no surprise as the mechanic already kind of works for them. Allowing them to cast a heal with full conversion seems to powerfull in 1vs1. The mechanic is useless for pure healers and unless the lifetap heals are greatly improved, like beeing the best heal to cast most of the time when you have filled the mechanic, this change would only buff speccs which does not need it.

As much as I'd love that for a healing AM, OP is right about it making the DPS spec too powerfull with full heal every 3 dmg spells.

So, maybe... this MIGHT be a bad idea but hear me out...
What if we keep the 5 points, but instead of keeping it a hybrid mechanic, we just grant an extra crit %/lower cast time/extra stats after every 5 casts?

So, I cast a healing spell 5 times, and the 6th heal spell has an extra perk + then the counter resets to 1 point again?
I know it goes against a hybrid mechanic but i think it would improve the healing mechanic and DPS would get a lil something out of it too?