Return of Reckoning

sweetest wrote:

Spoiler:

ahh nothin like writing a big post and having it get deleted as you push submit.

The way mythic intended the WP class to work is simple

Salvation - pure healer
Grace - melee dmg/support , backup heals and buffs for the group
Wrath - dmg tree, to compete with other mdps roles

which is pretty much how it actually plays out in game right now except, Wrath mastery tree skills are for the most part garbage and we struggle to support in a lot of situations because of our lack of gap closers or ability to stick on a target.

I don't think we need our healing buffed at all. I think our healing is perfectly fine the way it is right now and if you were to buff it you could easily make us overpowered. here is an example.

yesterday I was at the tavern defending it with a guild group
grace/dps wp (me)
a swordmaster
an engineer

1 full group of destro showed up with a few extras (8) and a fight ensued inside the tavern that lasted for about 5 minutes, we survived the fight and killed all 8 destro with our engineer actually disconnecting in the last 30 seconds, the only reason we were able to accomplish this was because not only was i doing good dmg alongside my engi and swordmaster while im calling targets but i was simultaneously healing the **** out of my whole group, DA the engi back to full hp, 550 hp sigmars radiance x4 to fill me and the swordmaster up etc.

I was able to heal through this group of 8 myself easily. Some of them werent max level. but i think regardless of that a group of 3 beating a group of 8 without a real dedicated healer actually shows something.

I think the right way to fix the class would be
Sigmar's Shield buff
Perhaps the 2h aoe detaunt suggested by aza earlier in the thread

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a way to catch up and melee people to support the group. whether this be mirroring over the DoK snare of giving WP's some kind of charge like ability. That is my only weakness atm. being kited.



EDIT: and for all the people saying there is no reason to take a 2h wp over a regular dps in a group, MAYBE if you're playing for money and trying to run some elitist 6v6 group that has a 97.77% chance to win each engagement then maybe you don't wanna take a dps wp.

however, there have been countless situations where me and my group (usually not even a full group) have survived incredible odds just because of my ability to put out spot heals and save peoples life in a pinch , where as if i were playing a WL or WH or something I wouldn't be able to do that, the group mate would die and we would lose.

sweetest wrote:I think our longevity and damage are in good places right now, I think our dmg needs slight buffs and we need 1 or 2 key tweaks to our survivability/gap closers.

Luth wrote:

sweetest wrote:

Spoiler:

ahh nothin like writing a big post and having it get deleted as you push submit.

The way mythic intended the WP class to work is simple

Salvation - pure healer
Grace - melee dmg/support , backup heals and buffs for the group
Wrath - dmg tree, to compete with other mdps roles

which is pretty much how it actually plays out in game right now except, Wrath mastery tree skills are for the most part garbage and we struggle to support in a lot of situations because of our lack of gap closers or ability to stick on a target.

I don't think we need our healing buffed at all. I think our healing is perfectly fine the way it is right now and if you were to buff it you could easily make us overpowered. here is an example.

yesterday I was at the tavern defending it with a guild group
grace/dps wp (me)
a swordmaster
an engineer

1 full group of destro showed up with a few extras (8) and a fight ensued inside the tavern that lasted for about 5 minutes, we survived the fight and killed all 8 destro with our engineer actually disconnecting in the last 30 seconds, the only reason we were able to accomplish this was because not only was i doing good dmg alongside my engi and swordmaster while im calling targets but i was simultaneously healing the **** out of my whole group, DA the engi back to full hp, 550 hp sigmars radiance x4 to fill me and the swordmaster up etc.

I was able to heal through this group of 8 myself easily. Some of them werent max level. but i think regardless of that a group of 3 beating a group of 8 without a real dedicated healer actually shows something.

I think the right way to fix the class would be
Sigmar's Shield buff
Perhaps the 2h aoe detaunt suggested by aza earlier in the thread

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a way to catch up and melee people to support the group. whether this be mirroring over the DoK snare of giving WP's some kind of charge like ability. That is my only weakness atm. being kited.



EDIT: and for all the people saying there is no reason to take a 2h wp over a regular dps in a group, MAYBE if you're playing for money and trying to run some elitist 6v6 group that has a 97.77% chance to win each engagement then maybe you don't wanna take a dps wp.

however, there have been countless situations where me and my group (usually not even a full group) have survived incredible odds just because of my ability to put out spot heals and save peoples life in a pinch , where as if i were playing a WL or WH or something I wouldn't be able to do that, the group mate would die and we would lose.

Farming a bunch of pugs who high likely didn't assist and are undergeared, on a choke point, with a door, with guildmates, is not really proving anything imo.
Any decent group would have knocked you down and killed you in no time. You would also have no timeframe of 4 GCD to heal your group up again, against any competent enemy.
Too many questions:
Did the tanks use guard at all? Did they assist? Was there any CC coordination or just idiots blowing their stuff in the air? Was there any decent melee doing noticable damage? etc.

Luth wrote:

Vigfuss wrote:

Spoiler:

waronlinebuilder.org - Disciple of Khaine build

This was a common dps spec for DoK, it provides some group utility, damage, and can actually heal for a lot. All healing is affected by strength (rend soul) and strength / Weapon Skill (transfer essence). There were some other tactics you might use depending on your group.

It's not really underpowered, but needs support from it's group, mainly guard. The biggest problem you run into is when your group needs to disengage, and they need you to heal them at the same time. Your second biggest problem is being a high priority target. Another problem is that real dps classes do the job a bit better or also more easily.

If the AoE detaunt will not require a tactic to use, it might be taking this a bit too far.

This topic is not about DPS WPs, it's about healing while in meleerange. The point of this topic is that melee WPs should be capable to fill a healer slot in a group. This means they need to be somewhat independent from a dedicated guard tank babysitting them. It also means they will in no way do any noticable damage compared with a real damage dealer.
Everything i just wrote was stated here several times already and aza clearly asked to read the topic before posting in it.
Also: Why the dok spec? That doesn't help a bit here.

SigmarPriest wrote:befor you start to thing about how to make a grace wp more "vaild" you need to accept that a healer who need to go from a to b to hit a target at b to produce heal is in many situations always weaker then a healer that can pull of heals direct then when they are needed.

Luth wrote:

Vigfuss wrote: It's not really underpowered, but needs support from it's group, mainly guard. The biggest problem you run into is when your group needs to disengage, and they need you to heal them at the same time. Your second biggest problem is being a high priority target. Another problem is that real dps classes do the job a bit better or also more easily.

This topic is not about DPS WPs, it's about healing while in meleerange. The point of this topic is that melee WPs should be capable to fill a healer slot in a group. This means they need to be somewhat independent from a dedicated guard tank babysitting them. It also means they will in no way do any noticable damage compared with a real damage dealer.
Everything i just wrote was stated here several times already and aza clearly asked to read the topic before posting in it.
Also: Why the dok spec? That doesn't help a bit here.

Torquemadra wrote:

Spoiler:

The shield showed up a lot on mythics concept art way back in the day as well