[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[sweetest]

I think our longevity and damage are in good places right now, I think our dmg needs slight buffs and we need 1 or 2 key tweaks to our survivability/gap closers

Sigmar's shield buff would be a massive boon to not only our support for the group, but our ability to sustain ourselves.

I don't think our AP management is a problem at all right now, DA consuming righteous fury is a massive help to not using up all our action points and i never really run into situations where I run out of AP.

we just need a solid gap closer, a way to stick on our target.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

ahh nothin like writing a big post and having it get deleted as you push submit.

The way mythic intended the WP class to work is simple

Salvation - pure healer
Grace - melee dmg/support , backup heals and buffs for the group
Wrath - dmg tree, to compete with other mdps roles

which is pretty much how it actually plays out in game right now except, Wrath mastery tree skills are for the most part garbage and we struggle to support in a lot of situations because of our lack of gap closers or ability to stick on a target.

I don't think we need our healing buffed at all. I think our healing is perfectly fine the way it is right now and if you were to buff it you could easily make us overpowered. here is an example.

yesterday I was at the tavern defending it with a guild group
grace/dps wp (me)
a swordmaster
an engineer

1 full group of destro showed up with a few extras (8) and a fight ensued inside the tavern that lasted for about 5 minutes, we survived the fight and killed all 8 destro with our engineer actually disconnecting in the last 30 seconds, the only reason we were able to accomplish this was because not only was i doing good dmg alongside my engi and swordmaster while im calling targets but i was simultaneously healing the **** out of my whole group, DA the engi back to full hp, 550 hp sigmars radiance x4 to fill me and the swordmaster up etc.

I was able to heal through this group of 8 myself easily. Some of them werent max level. but i think regardless of that a group of 3 beating a group of 8 without a real dedicated healer actually shows something.

I think the right way to fix the class would be
Sigmar's Shield buff
Perhaps the 2h aoe detaunt suggested by aza earlier in the thread

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a way to catch up and melee people to support the group. whether this be mirroring over the DoK snare of giving WP's some kind of charge like ability. That is my only weakness atm. being kited.



EDIT: and for all the people saying there is no reason to take a 2h wp over a regular dps in a group, MAYBE if you're playing for money and trying to run some elitist 6v6 group that has a 97.77% chance to win each engagement then maybe you don't wanna take a dps wp.

however, there have been countless situations where me and my group (usually not even a full group) have survived incredible odds just because of my ability to put out spot heals and save peoples life in a pinch , where as if i were playing a WL or WH or something I wouldn't be able to do that, the group mate would die and we would lose.

Farming a bunch of pugs who high likely didn't assist and are undergeared, on a choke point, with a door, with guildmates, is not really proving anything imo.
Any decent group would have knocked you down and killed you in no time. You would also have no timeframe of 4 GCD to heal your group up again, against any competent enemy.
Too many questions:
Did the tanks use guard at all? Did they assist? Was there any CC coordination or just idiots blowing their stuff in the air? Was there any decent melee doing noticable damage? etc.

[ThePollie]

I think our longevity and damage are in good places right now, I think our dmg needs slight buffs and we need 1 or 2 key tweaks to our survivability/gap closers.

I had the idea earlier of giving us a 20% movement speed buff on Smite attacks, that stack maybe twice. Wouldn't match mDPS, but would be something.

[sweetest]

Spoiler:

ahh nothin like writing a big post and having it get deleted as you push submit.

The way mythic intended the WP class to work is simple

Salvation - pure healer
Grace - melee dmg/support , backup heals and buffs for the group
Wrath - dmg tree, to compete with other mdps roles

which is pretty much how it actually plays out in game right now except, Wrath mastery tree skills are for the most part garbage and we struggle to support in a lot of situations because of our lack of gap closers or ability to stick on a target.

I don't think we need our healing buffed at all. I think our healing is perfectly fine the way it is right now and if you were to buff it you could easily make us overpowered. here is an example.

yesterday I was at the tavern defending it with a guild group
grace/dps wp (me)
a swordmaster
an engineer

1 full group of destro showed up with a few extras (8) and a fight ensued inside the tavern that lasted for about 5 minutes, we survived the fight and killed all 8 destro with our engineer actually disconnecting in the last 30 seconds, the only reason we were able to accomplish this was because not only was i doing good dmg alongside my engi and swordmaster while im calling targets but i was simultaneously healing the **** out of my whole group, DA the engi back to full hp, 550 hp sigmars radiance x4 to fill me and the swordmaster up etc.

I was able to heal through this group of 8 myself easily. Some of them werent max level. but i think regardless of that a group of 3 beating a group of 8 without a real dedicated healer actually shows something.

I think the right way to fix the class would be
Sigmar's Shield buff
Perhaps the 2h aoe detaunt suggested by aza earlier in the thread

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a way to catch up and melee people to support the group. whether this be mirroring over the DoK snare of giving WP's some kind of charge like ability. That is my only weakness atm. being kited.



EDIT: and for all the people saying there is no reason to take a 2h wp over a regular dps in a group, MAYBE if you're playing for money and trying to run some elitist 6v6 group that has a 97.77% chance to win each engagement then maybe you don't wanna take a dps wp.

however, there have been countless situations where me and my group (usually not even a full group) have survived incredible odds just because of my ability to put out spot heals and save peoples life in a pinch , where as if i were playing a WL or WH or something I wouldn't be able to do that, the group mate would die and we would lose.

Farming a bunch of pugs who high likely didn't assist and are undergeared, on a choke point, with a door, with guildmates, is not really proving anything imo.
Any decent group would have knocked you down and killed you in no time. You would also have no timeframe of 4 GCD to heal your group up again, against any competent enemy.
Too many questions:
Did the tanks use guard at all? Did they assist? Was there any CC coordination or just idiots blowing their stuff in the air? Was there any decent melee doing noticable damage? etc.

we didn't farm them in the chokepoint, we were inside the tavern 3v8 with everyone everywhere. Yeah im not really trying to brag about my elite skills for 3v8ing a pug warband but what im trying to say is regardless of if they were uncoordinated or not a class that isn't a healer being able to heal through 8 players i think says something of my healing capabilities right now.

[Landaren]

Original sigmars grace was uh, like mini divine assault all % based. Maybe it would help if you made a similar change to Divine Assault?
Maybe we could just adjust upon that in some way to make the healing portion more useful in general vs mitigation?

[Vigfuss]

Spoiler:

waronlinebuilder.org - Disciple of Khaine build

This was a common dps spec for DoK, it provides some group utility, damage, and can actually heal for a lot. All healing is affected by strength (rend soul) and strength / Weapon Skill (transfer essence). There were some other tactics you might use depending on your group.

It's not really underpowered, but needs support from it's group, mainly guard. The biggest problem you run into is when your group needs to disengage, and they need you to heal them at the same time. Your second biggest problem is being a high priority target. Another problem is that real dps classes do the job a bit better or also more easily.

If the AoE detaunt will not require a tactic to use, it might be taking this a bit too far.

This topic is not about DPS WPs, it's about healing while in meleerange. The point of this topic is that melee WPs should be capable to fill a healer slot in a group. This means they need to be somewhat independent from a dedicated guard tank babysitting them. It also means they will in no way do any noticable damage compared with a real damage dealer.
Everything i just wrote was stated here several times already and aza clearly asked to read the topic before posting in it.
Also: Why the dok spec? That doesn't help a bit here.

Are we not talking about both mirrors? This is how you melee heal with a DoK.

[Bozzax]

befor you start to thing about how to make a grace wp more "vaild" you need to accept that a healer who need to go from a to b to hit a target at b to produce heal is in many situations always weaker then a healer that can pull of heals direct then when they are needed.

It's not really underpowered, but needs support from it's group, mainly guard. The biggest problem you run into is when your group needs to disengage, and they need you to heal them at the same time. Your second biggest problem is being a high priority target. Another problem is that real dps classes do the job a bit better or also more easily.

This topic is not about DPS WPs, it's about healing while in meleerange. The point of this topic is that melee WPs should be capable to fill a healer slot in a group. This means they need to be somewhat independent from a dedicated guard tank babysitting them. It also means they will in no way do any noticable damage compared with a real damage dealer.
Everything i just wrote was stated here several times already and aza clearly asked to read the topic before posting in it.
Also: Why the dok spec? That doesn't help a bit here.

What they wrote is the real reason why melee healers always will be inferior to back line healers in groups.

It requires drastic changes if they'd ever be sought after ... such as ...

Moving AOE detaunt to melee heal tree (first tactic)
Add/Convert some of the direct melee heals to HoTs (to bridge not in range, more KD)
Bump melee AOE/HoTs heals to good enough (compared to back line)
Adding at least some (weak) ranged healing capabilities
Possibly make AOE cleanse 45 feet and make it 3 or 7 points instead (nerf back line AOE cleansers)
Consider a run speed increase on a high CD (poor mans charge)

Well stuff like that ... Not even sure it is possible to make them viable

[Luth]

This topic exists to discuss these problems and find solutions to them.
My point was that most people just click on "post" without reading the posts here (even when it is hard) and so have no clue whats the state of the discussion is at the moment, which can be abit annoying after a while.
Most people who suggest to change the "grace WP" into a full healer who is competitive are aware of those problems, which is pretty clear when you read their posts.

[Bozzax]

Still that is what needs to be adressed to make them viable as a healer or they'll just remain a solid small scale lake ambusher.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

The shield showed up a lot on mythics concept art way back in the day as well

The look of this lord was changed (as well as his champs the BO guards and the destro equivalents too) to look a bit more epic.
The original lord and his champs had a very non-epic look and the lord had also no shield.

But afaik there was a time in the alpha of the original server, when WPs could wear shields.
Maybe the damage output combined with the heals was too much to justify that survivability.