Overarching balance changes

[peterthepan3]

I honestly can't fathom how people believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale: it would necessitate x amount of players before a class could become 'viable'. RoR doesn't have many active WBs at all, and there are a far larger amount of smaller guilds roaming around than active WBs.

[Tesq]

I honestly can't fathom how people honestly believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale. It escapes me.

how can you balance aoe around 6vs 6? the base reason it's it hit 9 ppl which totally take out 3 ppl from 6vs6 balance logic so it wont traslate well then in wb. And anyway as i said balance st stuff wold be useless when wb use aoe.
Each skill need to be balanced in the enviroment where it's used. That also make builds differents and less copy paste.

[peterthepan3]

I honestly can't fathom how people honestly believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale. It escapes me.

how can you balance aoe around 6vs 6? the base reason it's it hit 9 ppl which totally take out 3 ppl from 6vs6 balance logic so it wont traslate well then in wb. And anyway as i said balance st stuff wopuld be useless when wb use aoe.

AoE skills exist to use outside of 6v6, and single-target skills exist to use in smaller encounters than WB vs WB. It makes perfect sense to me, and as I said I believe balance should take both scales into account. As it stands now, the balance is pretty good for both scales but only certain classes need to be made viable in either smallscale (Magus/Engi/AM and Sham to an extent/BG) or large scale (white lions, witch hunters, witch elves). When this is done, I believe we'll have a very well balanced game.

[Tesq]

I honestly can't fathom how people honestly believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale. It escapes me.

how can you balance aoe around 6vs 6? the base reason it's it hit 9 ppl which totally take out 3 ppl from 6vs6 balance logic so it wont traslate well then in wb. And anyway as i said balance st stuff wopuld be useless when wb use aoe.

AoE skills exist to use outside of 6v6, and single-target skills exist to use in smaller encounters than WB vs WB. It makes perfect sense to me, and as I said I believe balance should take both scales into account. As it stands now, the balance is pretty good for both scales but only certain classes need to be made viable in either smallscale (Magus/Engi/AM and Sham to an extent/BG) or large scale (white lions, witch hunters, witch elves). When this is done, I believe we'll have a very well balanced game.

i agree on you on this, in live we liked played 2 times with st wb just because we were pre nerf DOK/WP aoe heals and it was an hard counter to that.
Just if when balancing st it could also be taken in account for some st focus even in wb vs wb to bring down priority target it would be nice. Anyway im sure that a better balance could be achive both in rvr and in smaller skirm.

Should really start with those classes cutted out on 1 form or another one like engi/magus and BG/WL

[Zealote]

<snip> As it stands now, the balance is pretty good for both scales but only certain classes need to be made viable in either smallscale (Magus/Engi/AM and Sham to an extent/BG) or large scale (white lions, witch hunters, witch elves). When this is done, I believe we'll have a very well balanced game.

If this is true, wouldn't it make more sense to start balancing from classes first (say, those particular ones), rather than looking at 'overarching' balance? That's a genuine question btw; I don't really know either way myself atm.

[grumcajs]

its wierd but I agree with peterthepan ...

there should be some balance going both ways (small/large scale). In smallscale its pretty clear you wont be using aoe bomb grp. In larger scale aoe starts to be used more. Thus even in 12v12 it might be better to run with ST dmg than bombing, though its not that horrible idea like it seems for 6v6.

And as was said - its better to balance ST dmg based on smallscale and balance aoe from 12v12 and wb vs wb pov.

[grumcajs]

<snip> As it stands now, the balance is pretty good for both scales but only certain classes need to be made viable in either smallscale (Magus/Engi/AM and Sham to an extent/BG) or large scale (white lions, witch hunters, witch elves). When this is done, I believe we'll have a very well balanced game.

If this is true, wouldn't it make more sense to start balancing from classes first (say, those particular ones), rather than looking at 'overarching' balance? That's a genuine question btw; I don't really know either way myself atm.

I think it should be balanced based on classes and what do they offer

For example -
WE/WH should be top burst ST classes (+WL) cuz they lack any aoe dmg and are build around crit. So that means no other mdps class should be able to deal same ST dmg.

SW and SH are almost pure ST rdps so no other rdps should come close to their ST dmg output.

it shouldnt be possible for certain classes to excel at both ST and aoe dmg (BW/sorc , slayer/choppa). By excel I mean to be the best possible choice for this.

Same for healers - if healer is good at grp support (dok/wp) they should be worse ST healers than other healers out there (and yes, even worse than shamy/AM).

[roadkillrobin]

I honestly can't fathom how people believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale: it would necessitate x amount of players before a class could become 'viable'. RoR doesn't have many active WBs at all, and there are a far larger amount of smaller guilds roaming around than active WBs.

Noone is asking for single target dmg to be ballanced around 24v24 .That would just not translate well at all into 12v12 later coz heals would have to be boosted to around 100% of what they are now. What you seem to not fathom is that defensive stats and group heals and defensive buffs doesn't scale depening the format you're playing. If heals and defensive stats were ballanced on the dps output from 6v6 battle they would completly usless in 12v12 as the dps output would double under perfect circumstances.

We're talking about a ballance were a 12 man have about the same SINGLE TARGET dps output as a 24man warband does with AOE abillties ON A SINGLE TARGEET.(Maybe even a 18man WB) This has to be done to ballance group heals, defensive buffa, defensive stats in the game. And if this is done on to small scale like 6v6 or to large scale like 48v48 those stats and abillties just overpowered or obsolete. So when we look at the history of this game and the FACT that it had 0 permanent content for 6v6 It becomes really obvius that the game was ballanced for 12v12 in smaller scale combat.

[roadkillrobin]

<snip> As it stands now, the balance is pretty good for both scales but only certain classes need to be made viable in either smallscale (Magus/Engi/AM and Sham to an extent/BG) or large scale (white lions, witch hunters, witch elves). When this is done, I believe we'll have a very well balanced game.

If this is true, wouldn't it make more sense to start balancing from classes first (say, those particular ones), rather than looking at 'overarching' balance? That's a genuine question btw; I don't really know either way myself atm.

I think it should be balanced based on classes and what do they offer

For example -
WE/WH should be top burst ST classes (+WL) cuz they lack any aoe dmg and are build around crit. So that means no other mdps class should be able to deal same ST dmg.

SW and SH are almost pure ST rdps so no other rdps should come close to their ST dmg output.

it shouldnt be possible for certain classes to excel at both ST and aoe dmg (BW/sorc , slayer/choppa). By excel I mean to be the best possible choice for this.

Same for healers - if healer is good at grp support (dok/wp) they should be worse ST healers than other healers out there (and yes, even worse than shamy/AM).

WH/WE have a AoE spec that brings something that no other class does, very few seem to understand this tho.

WL is the only class in the game that doesn't bring anything unuiqe to a warband. And yes it needs to be fixed. I sugest we mirror the Morale draining tactic that Marauders have and we make Whirling Axe and Slashing Blade into Spirit damage for SM/WL synnergy

SH/SW are really good in warbands, There's alot of synnergies with Leading Shots and crit Procs in the game that have some really big impact in large scale fights.
SH is just awsome in large scale fights it's not a ranged spec tho. But neither is BW/Sorcs when you spec em properly for warbands.

AM/SH could use somee tweaks on the healing thats for sure. But there's actually couple uses for em in warbands. For example they are the only class that can AoE debuff, Int/BS, their puddle is also really great in large scalee, But the main reason you take em is to get the morale pump they offer.

[peterthepan3]

I honestly can't fathom how people believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale: it would necessitate x amount of players before a class could become 'viable'. RoR doesn't have many active WBs at all, and there are a far larger amount of smaller guilds roaming around than active WBs.

Noone is asking for single target dmg to be ballanced around 24v24 .That would just not translate well at all into 12v12 later coz heals would have to be boosted to around 100% of what they are now. What you seem to not fathom is that defensive stats and group heals and defensive buffs doesn't scale depening the format you're playing. If heals and defensive stats were ballanced on the dps output from 6v6 battle they would completly usless in 12v12 as the dps output would double under perfect circumstances.

We're talking about a ballance were a 12 man have about the same SINGLE TARGET dps output as a 24man warband does with AOE abillties ON A SINGLE TARGEET.(Maybe even a 18man WB) This has to be done to ballance group heals, defensive buffa, defensive stats in the game. And if this is done on to small scale like 6v6 or to large scale like 48v48 those stats and abillties just overpowered or obsolete. So when we look at the history of this game and the FACT that it had 0 permanent content for 6v6 It becomes really obvius that the game was ballanced for 12v12 in smaller scale combat.

...but while the DPS output doubles in a 12v12 - or quadruples in 24v24 - so too does the healing output, the amount of absorbs going on due to more healers, the amount of cleansing going on due to more healers, the relative ease to gain M4 due to more chosens/bos using m4 tactic and classes like AM giving morale boost, the amount of tanks and thus challenges/guards being applied. This is balanced.

You seem very eager to bang on about the 12v12 all the time in smaller scale but noone even does 12v12, and even in scenarios the groups will tend to split up if premades are involved focusing more on 6v6/6vx as the chances of both groups working in tandem is very slim most of the time. Regardless RoR is a different beast to WAR and Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel will be 6v6 scens iirc. (Also Bozaax was right concerning several of those scens being 6v6 btw)

And if you honestly think you can call a few gimmicky skills/tactics a viable aoe spec for WH/WE then lul.