Ability Rework Progress

[Bozzax]

Also am/sh ap problem are fixed in t4 by sov set bonus

Only for heal spec and hots do not proc the set bonus.

Just use AP-potions helmet tally and RAs like the rest of us. DPS Shammy don't even have the AP-leech just saying

[Tesq]

The damage isn't too bad once you have the pet out. Just the fact that you would always have to re-summon it, or in a fast-paced environment you would barely find an opportune moment to have it out; that DoTs were dispelled too easily; no sort of 'niche' (stagger removal was nice until they **** that up and rendered it useless)

maybe a point to summon like pit of shadow would be more beneficial for summon pet?

That way they could even be summon further, but maybe that is client side.

[Bozzax]

Guys this is not an engi/magus problem all dot builds Sorc/BW,SH,AM,SW etc are garbage as long as we have 100feet group cleanses every 2,5-5s. Sorcs/BWs get by as they rely on having dots that basically works like delayed DD that gives them burst to burn a target solo. All other builds except the "emulate DD one" is as bad as Engi/Magus.

1. Reduce range on group cleanse 50% and make it LOS
2. Remove all CDs on dots all dots except transfer/leech and backloaded ones (deal with AOE as stacked DD AOE is handled)

Now these classes can assist and long duration dots won't be cleansed all the time. Doks and WPs get a small nerf and gets a reson for going closer to the enemy. Thus we have a reason for them being medium cloth.

Most importantly .... Test it out

3. Reduce duration of some of the longer ones if this wasn't enough

This would make new dot builds (BW, SORC, AM, SH, SW) possible and provide an injection of purpose in Magi/engi class. Bump the cloth healers a notch as fielding 1-2 x WP or 1-2 x DoK isn't the only way

[Vraal]

I think Bozzax is right. The main problem lies with the group-cleanse tactic. It plainly is too strong.
Cleansing should be a tactical decision and not a "spam-every-5-secs-nobrainer". Besides the problems that this tactic causes for DOT-heavy classes it also poses a huge balance problem on the healer side.
It sets WP/DoK even further ahead, considering they already have superior defenses and group-healing compared to the other healing archetypes.

Another possibility would be to introduce a mechanic (tactic maybe?) to make DOTs uncleanseable.
A similar thing was introduced in SWTOR where DOT classes were gimped because of cleanses, too.
This idea is less refined than the simple nerf/replace for the aoe-cleanse tactic but I see that we gather ideas, so those are my 2cents.

Greets,
Vraal

[Sulorie]

Umm sorry ,but my main was a Magus (pretty well-known) back on Norn actually.

1) So, by that logic, you're saying that the Magi community should be happy and contempt with their role being that of a debuff masker? Cool.
2) Their single-target damage is good, but if you had bothered to read my comment, you would see that it is situational, and it takes time to set-up (pet buff, WS) if you want to deliver the most optimum amount of damage. Other classes can do that in a heart-beat.
3) Maybe -you- never played competitive RvR, but most groups would have at least 2 cleansebots, resulting in - more often than not - your serious DoTs 50% of the time being cleansed. Given Magus hefty AP costs, that just exacerbated their already-dire predicament.
4) Sorc could still pump out 3-4k doombolts on demand, so it was no way near as bad as it was for the Magus/Engi. How can you even compare the two?!
5) What has kiting got to do with this?

Ill-informed.

1) When I talk about dots in general you assume I see Magi as a debuff masker? Nice try.
2) What setup time?! That you need 2 gcd to set your dots, while your pet is always nearby with zero summoning time, giving you mobility.
3) Those cleanse bots hit Sorc, Dps AM and other RDPS as well. The Magus is not alone here. I am not saying, that cleanse is fine as it is. Cleanse is no Magus-only issue.
4) Sorcs can't deal 3-4k with Doombolt against same ranked targets, who didn't fcked up their spec. They don't even hit 2k. You remember, trivial blows exists.
5) Kiting needs movement, dots are usable while moving. When you roam with RDPS, you need to learn to kite. That's it.

Just use AP-potions helmet tally and RAs like the rest of us. DPS Shammy don't even have the AP-leech just saying

One random cast without ap cost here and there, that's reliable! I really hope you never specced for any AP related renown skills.
What game you were playing where shamans had no ap leech? This starts to get funny.

[Tesq]

I just fear that nerf too much the aoe group cleanse would make healt bar even more elastic. All things from snare to heal debuff are curently handle by cleanse if we start nerf too much cleanse then dot classes could became something too much to handle, due the fact that most of dot can be done while moving. There are some dot like bw/sorc that just need to always be cleanse and nerf cleanse would make them even hard to cleanse; If you have ti pick them randomly in 30+ possible slot.
If any change have to be done to cleanse, it must be done before any rdps dot change imho.
That's why i suggested a magus/engi buff cos i would not like to tear appart the fragile balance of cleanse vs dot.
But maybe it's just 1.4.0 damage that i fear. In sov enviroment like we seem to go maybe things will be better and so there will be no reason for a so good group cleanse cos there will be no crit creep.

[Zxul]

Speaking of magus, it worked just fine back on live at T4, it was however a solo class, unlike sorc who needed team for anything.

I used this spec back on live. Maxed renown toughness/Trivial Blows, all talismans toughness/armor, custom mix of armor to get toughness bonus from 2 sets.

In total with Daemonic Pact tactic I had 800 or so toughness, and close to 4 k armor, and Aegis of Orange Fire 2.2 k heal+ heal pots.

Usual tactic was hitting them with all the dots while getting close, then at melee range hitting them with all the Havoc heavy nukes at 50% cast time cause of Close Quarters tactic.

As a rr 80 sh magus, I killed solo quite a lot of rr100s, and groups of several toons. Used to surprise order running to magus for free points every time- they somehow weren't expecting magus being able to take as much damage as a tank, while still having rdps damage.

You couldn't get anywhere near that as sorc for example- I rerolled to magus from one, from other hand sorc was better in team.

[Bozzax]

Just use AP-potions helmet tally and RAs like the rest of us. DPS Shammy don't even have the AP-leech just saying

One random cast without ap cost here and there, that's reliable! I really hope you never specced for any AP related renown skills.
What game you were playing where shamans had no ap leech? This starts to get funny.

Shammy was one of the few classes I've never played so I went by ability description my bad. Just wanted to point out there are other ways to get APs that some classes need to use

[Bozzax]

Speaking of magus, it worked just fine back on live at T4, it was however a solo class, unlike sorc who needed team for anything.

I used this spec back on live. Maxed renown toughness/Trivial Blows, all talismans toughness/armor, custom mix of armor to get toughness bonus from 2 sets.

In total with Daemonic Pact tactic I had 800 or so toughness, and close to 4 k armor, and Aegis of Orange Fire 2.2 k heal+ heal pots.

Usual tactic was hitting them with all the dots while getting close, then at melee range hitting them with all the Havoc heavy nukes at 50% cast time cause of Close Quarters tactic.

As a rr 80 sh magus, I killed solo quite a lot of rr100s, and groups of several toons. Used to surprise order running to magus for free points every time- they somehow weren't expecting magus being able to take as much damage as a tank, while still having rdps damage.

You couldn't get anywhere near that as sorc for example- I rerolled to magus from one, from other hand sorc was better in team.

Magus / engi are awesome duelling or ambushing solo in lake we all agree. We just never get an invite to a group unless it is half full and even then it isn't guaranteed

[Bozzax]

I just fear that nerf too much the aoe group cleanse would make healt bar even more elastic. All things from snare to heal debuff are curently handle by cleanse if we start nerf too much cleanse then dot classes could became something too much to handle, due the fact that most of dot can be done while moving. There are some dot like bw/sorc that just need to always be cleanse and nerf cleanse would make them even hard to cleanse; If you have ti pick them randomly in 30+ possible slot.
If any change have to be done to cleanse, it must be done before any rdps dot change imho.
That's why i suggested a magus/engi buff cos i would not like to tear appart the fragile balance of cleanse vs dot.
But maybe it's just 1.4.0 damage that i fear. In sov enviroment like we seem to go maybe things will be better and so there will be no reason for a so good group cleanse cos there will be no crit creep.

TESQ all dot spec are garbage not just Magus/engi we can double damage and they would still be garbage in a 100 feet 2,5-5 Group cleanse context