[Split] Marauder discussion

[noisestorm]

Well im not sure if destro can run setups like BW+WH as order can. Like WE+Sorc most likely wont work as good. But basically Destro has no real problem with any Order from my sole 6v6 experience as Ex-Destro myself.

[Ridduk]

Whilst I agree Mara needs a couple of slight adjustments (namely PB only affecting mutations and Feeding on Fear for both the SW and Mara working as intended), it simply does not have all toys in one spec

And just to call this out, anyone citing KD on disrupt clearly hasn't played a Mara in T4. Disrupt happens so infrequently vs 1500+ Intel casters that most Maras won't even have it slotted. Its not anytime and thus can't be used strategically

But in the interests of realm balance let's look at some T4 disparity

There are many very, very powerful abilities that exist on Order only or in some cases are mirrored on obscure specs of less useful classes (e.g. Shatter Limbs/Bad Gas). And whilst I'm not suggesting Destro don't have some powerful unique abilities (Crippling Strikes, Thunderous Blow, Piercing Bite, Covenant of Celerity) - they are largely single target and pale in comparison to the Order plethora:

ID / Shatter Limbs / Rampage
Festerbomb / Leading Shots
Dirty Tricks / Encouraged Aim / Focused Mending / Destroy Confidence
Exalted Defences
+50% AA haste on all mDps
2x Ranged KD
BW self cleanse/inc heal debuff
Pounce (as a no cooldown, kiter-catching, melee-train-escaping, mid-air useable OP ability - that for some reason still allows them to escape Champs Challenge, Snare and Root)

It is not just that the Slayer is devastatingly effective against multiple foes (not just from an undefendable damaging perspective, but from the ability to deploy powerful debuffs like the ridiculous Shattered Limbs) at almost the same level as it's counterpart can do ST

It's the crazy synergy of the above predominantly Order only abilities

What the Knight brings to a group just by turning up and having 3 auras on beyond the Auras themselves (with Encouraged Aim, Dirty Tricks and Focused Mending) and standing still is insane, he loses nothing (as in terms of his tools he _needs_ a tank)

Equivalent +20% crit to outbound attacks along with +10% to crit heals for group without them having to spec anything and with no need to recast or land a blow, alone is stronger than anything Destro has

Given that all Order mdps have BOTH +50% crit dmg tactics (that Destro has) AND +50% AA haste tactics (that Destro doesn't) that both gain this benefit the synergy is immense. Toss in Leading Shots and it becomes farcical

With the prevalence of WPs and Knights in T4, the combination of Exalted Defences and and Focused Mending is absurd (note that if these stack additively, at the very least the Chosen heal debuff aura should also stack additively with other incoming heal debuffs)

A 50% Inc heal debuff would only really be a 35% debuff to a WP grouped with a Knight

Pounce, ahh pounce.. If Order don't appreciate what a phenomenal skill it is - mirror to the Choppa instead of the shitty AP skill they get instead of Rampage

A lot of good points here.

[tomato]

Ye and that post is so biased and uninformed, no point in arguing. (You could just list all destru strong points the same way, so what)

Just one thing, any half brained kotbs won't ever run both crit tactics + heal bless.
It's crap and won't get you anywhere.

But still in so much posts I see idiots crying about 20% crit+15% heal, it just shows you have no clue about what you're talking and should shut up about balance issues.

[Bretin]

A lot of good points here.

i lol'd

[Coryphaus]

post stagger nerf to 3s i saw many kotbs running tri spec with those 3 tactics + runefang in grps espically if their grp was 1 kotbs + 1 ib for tanks

[tomato]

Lots of bad kotbs.

Only time you would run 20%+heal bless would be in a bomb setup.
But those can't compete 6vs6 anyway.

[Ridduk]

A lot of good points here.

i lol'd

T2 experts in the house.

[Nanji]

post stagger nerf to 3s i saw many kotbs running tri spec with those 3 tactics + runefang in grps espically if their grp was 1 kotbs + 1 ib for tanks

I wouldnt have agreed with triapecc being absolutely stupid but runefang as the 4th tactic makes me very sad ( mained kobs on live)
Why no kick? Why no multitargetsnare?
Because IB has them too? And I wonder why there is no competition......

[mickeye]

[Euan]

Ok let me start with a more srs post since this thread is still about the marauder class discussion but ppl keep complaining about everything but not about the marauder. I'm gonna quote something I’ve posted in the past. Basically it’s a post which sums up the current state of marauder in T4 pretty well and it shows what “fotm order” has to deal with:

If you want to determine the balance of a class, you must consider the following attributes:

- How much offensive potential does the class have
- How much defensive potential does the class have
- In what way does the defense restrict the offensive and vice versa (if you’d have a number line, with the numbers 1-10 on the left and right side, which represent your defense resp. offensive, and in the middle a 0, how would it affect the ratio at one side if you’d manipulate the other side?)

Those are general things you have to define before you strive for further deliberations about the balance.

A few facts referring to the mentioned points above:

1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage-values of all mdps-classes, since he never had a damage mechanic or a crit-dmg tactic in the past (GI was too unreliable to count as such one). That didn’t change after the buffs to GI, so that the Marauder has the same dmg modifiers as WE/WH/WL (with restrictions, since all these classes got tactics which increases their dmg modifier but which can be used only limited i.e. Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge etc.), while he has a higher base-damage on his abilities.

However, the Marauder would be able to keep pace even if you consider the above mentioned tactics, since he got an equally strong ability which works without any restrictions regarding to reliability and tactic-slots (Mutated Aggressor).

2. The Marauder is by far the class which deals, almost independently on your target, the most damage in comparison to his maximum damage potential. That means, while every other mdps class is limited to 20-30% of his max. damage potential against some classes and players, the marauder is able to pull off 50-60% of his max. damage potential against the same target. That’s a result of the immense low mitigation a marauder can reach against his target, thanks to the best armor debuff, a toughness debuff and a tactic which let you ignore 50% of the remaining armor and another skill which does not only profit from the above mentioned penetration-possibilities but also ignores a fixed value of armor by itself.

3. The Marauder is the onliest mdps class which has all debuffs you need to kill a target with guard. Every other dps class relies on a second one because she either lack the heal- or armor debuff. The marauder does not only have both of these abilities, no his versions of those abilities are also the strongest ig (best armor debuff and best healdebuff because it can’t be purged by the wp’s group purge on a 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% heal leech for the Marauder himself. That heal leech contains literally every healing type, including potions and even more preposterous: OVERHEAL!)

3.1 A snare which can’t be purged. Therefore the best snare of all MDPS-classes and combined with charge and terrible embrace it makes the Marauder the best MDPS-class when it comes to prevent your target from kiting.

Also the Marauder has the best HP-debuff ingame, which is the third best debuff after armor and healdebuff you can have on a target. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if I now tell you that this ability is not only bugged but also the best version of HP-debuff the game offers.

4. The Marauder wears “Medium Armor”. No other MDPS-Class has more armor than the Marauder besides a WL who’s using Baited Trap”. The Marauder has the unique ability to make himself immune against armor penetration, if it’s needed. Thus makes the marauder become the toughest MDPS class ingame with only 1 click.

Let’s summarize why the mrd is “op”:

- More damage potential than any other MDPS-class
- Combines all debuff types and also got the best versions of those
- High combat uptime and the best class to prevent a target from kiting and force them into the assist train
- If needed the toughest MDPS-Class by swapping mutation + the hardest class to kill due to self-heal and heal-leech.

Since you can’t compare the White Lion directly with the Marauder due to the overall realm and meta balance, that’s not a logical starting point to get the right changes going through. If you want to compare classes, you have to compare those which compete with each other i.e. WL and SL or Choppa and Marauder. You have to create a synergy and make them rely on each other without making them useless when alone. But one class should never be able to pressure a full group all alone which a marauder easily can once he has access to HD. No other class is able to do that!

Now you have people like Bludfist, Shlomo, Tesq and all the other pen and paper warriors which are 100% clueless and bad at the game but they tend to act like they would actually know everything about the game and its classes. They keep spamming their stupid “balance suggestions” every time they die in PvP into every thread.

SW balance thread: They will tell you rdps classes are “UP” without any reasonable argument. They die: Fester OP, range KD OP.
WL balance thread: They will tell you WL is “UP” without any reasonable argument. They die: Pounce and Pet OP.
SM balance thread: They will tell you SM is a **** tank without any reasonable argument. They die: Spirit dmg on crit proc OP.

I mean what the ****? Should we really open a thread for everything which is good and makes you die/survive at PvP? Why don’t you complain about chosen’s moral tactic or the fact that order has whether access to a competitive hp debuff or a viable pull. Right, because you will always find unique things on both sides. That’s how a non 1:1 mirror game works. A reason why many of us like Warhammer! Yet there are a lot more important things the devs have to deal with. I guess it’s not only me who’d wish to see you guys stop crying whenever you die in PvP. Try to improve and adapt instead of being a bltch. Once your knowledge is based on something which is not Excel/Word or ingame failures you can try to discuss changes in a serious way again. That’s what I suggest! Balancing is not as easy as you wish and mirroring is not an option if you want WAR to be what it is used to be!

Until then the class balance for pen and paper warriors will stay a l2p issue!

very good, thought through and well argumented post. and that's from a guy that mains Mara.

Interesting that you main marauder and would say this.

Scorn is what I'm full of when reading this thread. I hope you play destro, "Skorn" so I can give you some extra attention.