Marauder, any advice & tips?

[Coryphaus]

I don't think it would be worth thte tactic slot to go from 25% to 50% without leech. Like why.

Because you’re not going to kill jack **** if your dmg dealt is being easily healed up especially with how many healers order has here in RoR

And furthermore you wont kill any healers or even pressure them that much with you weak 25%

You already have 25% and someone usually in party will have a 50% debuff tactic. They don't stack, like armor reduction, which is why you wouldn't want 2 marauders.

If you focus the right target with team that healer will die really quick with or without the 25% heal deubuff. Healers are mostly op in lower tiers. Even now i can kill them with my 25% heal debuff. It only gets easier.

If you can kill healers with 25% hdbuff you playing against **** healers and it geats harder cause healers will heal more espically with kotbs 15% healing increase tactic


Choppas Hd buff, once again is a 10s and can be blocked and parried; 6 mans always run 2 healers so like it was stated you can never have enough hdebuffs espically then that means that 1 mdps can focus 1 healer each


i cant belive i even have to try and convince some one to take a tactic like this

[noisestorm]

this tactic will be subject to nerfs when its all done. im throwing my hand into the fire on this. thats like the supreme example of mythics "how not to balance right" .

[Coryphaus]

If it is nerfed then tainted claw should be changed to base 50% hdebuff I feel

[foof]

If it is nerfed then tainted claw should be changed to base 50% hdebuff I feel

I think that would be OP unfortunately. What I always advocated for to the devs on live was:

Swap Draining Strike and Tainted Claw.

Change duration of DS to 5 seconds, cooldown to 10 seconds. Appropriately nerf the damage/debuff to be a core ability.

Make tainted claw a 50% base. Keep everything else the same.

Remove the Deadly Clutch tactic completely and put something new in there.

Also at the same time,

Make Thin the Herd (WL debuff), a 50% incoming with no positional requirement for parity.

There you go. Now the Marauder has a 50% heal debuff that doesn't require a tactic, but just like the WL, they have to commit and spec for it. It makes Savagery Marauders better overall (have an extra tactic slot). But makes those who do not spec high in Sav to have no heal debuff. Essentially it creates parity between the MDPS classes (everyone has a specced heal debuff), parity between the cross faction archetypes (WL and Mara now both have an incoming 13 point heal debuff), as makes the Marauder better overall (which may not be needed, but I advocate for extensive changes to every single class, so tweaks to everyone, including the Marauder).

A straight up nerf to the deadly clutch tactic would be awful for the Marauder.

[Vigfuss]

If it is nerfed then tainted claw should be changed to base 50% hdebuff I feel

I think that would be OP unfortunately. What I always advocated for to the devs on live was:

Swap Draining Strike and Tainted Claw.

Change duration of DS to 5 seconds, cooldown to 10 seconds. Appropriately nerf the damage/debuff to be a core ability.

Make tainted claw a 50% base. Keep everything else the same.

Remove the Deadly Clutch tactic completely and put something new in there.

Also at the same time,

Make Thin the Herd (WL debuff), a 50% incoming with no positional requirement for parity.

There you go. Now the Marauder has a 50% heal debuff that doesn't require a tactic, but just like the WL, they have to commit and spec for it. It makes Savagery Marauders better overall (have an extra tactic slot). But makes those who do not spec high in Sav to have no heal debuff. Essentially it creates parity between the MDPS classes (everyone has a specced heal debuff), parity between the cross faction archetypes (WL and Mara now both have an incoming 13 point heal debuff), as makes the Marauder better overall (which may not be needed, but I advocate for extensive changes to every single class, so tweaks to everyone, including the Marauder).

A straight up nerf to the deadly clutch tactic would be awful for the Marauder.

Even that would be a buff. 50% Hdebuff while being able to slot one more damage tactic.

IMO mara bugs need to be fixed before considering further changes to the class. Piercing Bite tactic was bugged and was applied to all skills, even AA. If you have to spec enough wep skill to make up the damage it would be difficult for a mara to soft cap strength or you lose another damage tactic. Also, Feeding on Fear was not applying a 10% chance to be crit, making it a free 20% crit with no drawbacks. With FoF fixed it will affect survivablity enough that it might offset Deadly Clutch anyways.

Beyond that Mara and Slayer should be carefully adjusted together. As long as both realms have a top tier MDPS, you can't nerf one without also thinking about the other.

[foof]

Also, I wanted to briefly mention the history of Deadly Clutch and how the class was designed.

In the beginning, DC was a tactic that turned Tainted Claw from a 25% heal debuff to a 75% heal debuff.

This was clearly (in hindsight )OP, so DC was changed to the current version you have today (which was honestly a nerf, for the reasons the self healing isn't that good as I stated in a few posts back).

Anyway, to speak on the main concept of Tainted Claw and Deadly Clutch, the Marauder has some pros and cons in the healing debuff game vs other MDPS. Essentially its that the Marauder has to use a tactic where other MDPS do not (which is bad), the positive is that TC is the only heal debuff that has a 5 second cooldown (easier to reapply or put on two diff targets).

[foof]

If it is nerfed then tainted claw should be changed to base 50% hdebuff I feel

I think that would be OP unfortunately. What I always advocated for to the devs on live was:

Swap Draining Strike and Tainted Claw.

Change duration of DS to 5 seconds, cooldown to 10 seconds. Appropriately nerf the damage/debuff to be a core ability.

Make tainted claw a 50% base. Keep everything else the same.

Remove the Deadly Clutch tactic completely and put something new in there.

Also at the same time,

Make Thin the Herd (WL debuff), a 50% incoming with no positional requirement for parity.

There you go. Now the Marauder has a 50% heal debuff that doesn't require a tactic, but just like the WL, they have to commit and spec for it. It makes Savagery Marauders better overall (have an extra tactic slot). But makes those who do not spec high in Sav to have no heal debuff. Essentially it creates parity between the MDPS classes (everyone has a specced heal debuff), parity between the cross faction archetypes (WL and Mara now both have an incoming 13 point heal debuff), as makes the Marauder better overall (which may not be needed, but I advocate for extensive changes to every single class, so tweaks to everyone, including the Marauder).

A straight up nerf to the deadly clutch tactic would be awful for the Marauder.

Even that would be a buff. 50% Hdebuff while being able to slot one more damage tactic.

IMO mara bugs need to be fixed before considering further changes to the class. Piercing Bite tactic was bugged and was applied to all skills, even AA. If you have to spec enough wep skill to make up the damage it would be difficult for a mara to soft cap strength or you lose another damage tactic. Also, Feeding on Fear was not applying a 10% chance to be crit, making it a free 20% crit with no drawbacks. With FoF fixed it will affect survivablity enough that it might offset Deadly Clutch anyways.

Beyond that Mara and Slayer should be carefully adjusted together. As long as both realms have a top tier MDPS, you can't nerf one without also thinking about the other.

It would be a buff, I know that. That is the actual purpose of the suggestion. Having to use a tactic to get a 50% heal debuff is something no other MDPS has to do. It has always been pretty gimp every since the initially changed DC from a 75% heal debuff.

And yes, all bugs should be fixed, I agree with that 100%. I was pretty sure they fixed the Piercing bite and Feeding on Fear bugs during live at some point, but maybe not, my memory isn't perfect.

Regardless, all classes need to be balanced and adjusted properly. There is little reason to tie the Marauder in with the Slayer though, as their direct mirror is the White Lion who also needs some love (esp when it comes to their heal debuff as well). If the slayer is seen as that much better then the choppa, then its the choppa/slayer mirror that needs to be discussed. If we want to talk about Marauder balance, we frame it in a different number of venues:

Overall Archetype Parity (both in-faction and both factions) - For instance, MDPS classes vs other MDPS classes.
Direct Mirror Parity - For instance, BW vs Sorc, Mara vs WL, etc...

Both of these things are equally important and require thinking of balance in a variety of connections.

This is why I proposed the suggestion I did. It would create both archetype parity (all MDPS would have a specced, 50% heal debuff), and direct mirror parity (buffs the Marauder slightly, and the White Lion massively).

[Vigfuss]

There is little reason to tie the Marauder in with the Slayer though, as their direct mirror is the White Lion who also needs some love (esp when it comes to their heal debuff as well). If the slayer is seen as that much better then the choppa, then its the choppa/slayer mirror that needs to be discussed. If we want to talk about Marauder balance, we frame it in a different number of venues:

Overall Archetype Parity (both in-faction and both factions) - For instance, MDPS classes vs other MDPS classes.
Direct Mirror Parity - For instance, BW vs Sorc, Mara vs WL, etc...

Both of these things are equally important and require thinking of balance in a variety of connections.

This is why I proposed the suggestion I did. It would create both archetype parity (all MDPS would have a specced, 50% heal debuff), and direct mirror parity (buffs the Marauder slightly, and the White Lion massively).

There are very few real direct mirrors in the game. There is also class synergy with Tanks that plays a role. For example, any adjustments to the Kotbs tactics could have an impact on slayer damage output and survivability at rank 40, even with no changes to the Slayer.

I think perfomance of Maras and Slayers in 2-2-2 6mans will be the best point of balance to look at because in both cases the strongest groups in the game at level 40 are 2x Mara or 2x Slayer. That leaves the other MDPS out of the discussion until the Mara and Slayer are tuned down a bit. Bug fixes on Mara might be enough, but what is planned for slayer? I sort of think Kotbs is the right place to look on Order side, but that could be debated.

[foof]

There is little reason to tie the Marauder in with the Slayer though, as their direct mirror is the White Lion who also needs some love (esp when it comes to their heal debuff as well). If the slayer is seen as that much better then the choppa, then its the choppa/slayer mirror that needs to be discussed. If we want to talk about Marauder balance, we frame it in a different number of venues:

Overall Archetype Parity (both in-faction and both factions) - For instance, MDPS classes vs other MDPS classes.
Direct Mirror Parity - For instance, BW vs Sorc, Mara vs WL, etc...

Both of these things are equally important and require thinking of balance in a variety of connections.

This is why I proposed the suggestion I did. It would create both archetype parity (all MDPS would have a specced, 50% heal debuff), and direct mirror parity (buffs the Marauder slightly, and the White Lion massively).

There are very few real direct mirrors in the game. There is also class synergy with Tanks that plays a role. For example, any adjustments to the Kotbs tactics could have an impact on slayer damage output and survivability at rank 40, even with no changes to the Slayer.

I think perfomance of Maras and Slayers in 2-2-2 6mans will be the best point of balance to look at because in both cases the strongest groups in the game at level 40 are 2x Mara or 2x Slayer. That leaves the other MDPS out of the discussion until the Mara and Slayer are tuned down a bit. Bug fixes on Mara might be enough, but what is planned for slayer? I sort of think Kotbs is the right place to look on Order side, but that could be debated.

Everything needs to be adjusted simultaneously, a big balance patch. That would make the most sense. Everything needs to be balanced in a specific relationship to each variable.

[Xaun]

Don't do a Mythic and big bang,

Have a roadmap, implement small incremental changes often, re-evaluate, repeat

And Mara+SH is the loose mirror to WL+SW

I'm all for fixing FoF for Mara AND SW, and Piercing Bite to work as intended, along with a CD on Pounce and mirror on rKD as well as +AA haste tactics for Destro mdps