2h Tank guard

[detrap]

@detrap learn some basics of probability theory. 1 roll of 75% < 2 rolls of 50% and 65% (you use buffed parry value but unbuffed block/parry to fit your "argument"?)
also you overestimate parry level on properly geared 2h tanks way too much. with bloodlord it become possible to casually reach the cap with buffs (75%). average unbuffed level is (and was) around 40-50%. in proper environment you would also get at least 10% of that debuffed (or 50%) with armor stripped on top.
snb tanks without any problems reach unbuffed 40% block on invader level with rr spent.
in no wonderland 2h tanks had more survivebility than snb.

You are wrong here. There is no 75% cap on defensive abilities. Before the patch, SM's could easily reach above 100% parry and avoid the guard damage better than any other snb tank in the game. BO's suffer a speed penalty to their block channel, BG's and IB's is on a long cooldown.

We are talking about guard damage here and buffing your parry above 70% was enough for justifying not using a shield to absorb guard damage in small scale and warband vs warband fights.

[engharat]

Unfortunately, your assertions are false. Good 2h tank players dish probably half, if not 1/3, of the damage of a good dps player. They bring crowdcontrol but they lack for anything else; the problem is that a true tank provide crowdcontrol and much more, becoming the obvious favorable choice in any case.
Boiling down to simple numbers, the scenario is something like that:
1h snb tank hits for 100
2h tank hits for 400.
Dps hits for 1500.
Smart WB builders will never take 2h tank looking at the +300dmg w.r.t. 1h tank, because this comes to the expense of no guard at all(like someone proposes) or at guard dmg quickly chewing through the 2h tank; they will take 1h tank because they can properly guard their dps, they survive even while guarding, and they provide all the tank goodness needed. The WB will not miss the slightly more dps of a tank, because dps is provided by...dps characters.
This reflects the current situation from destro side: on any serious city siege WB you will find ONE 2h BG for the nice aoe crit chance, and that is. Try to ask for group as 2h chosen/BO and they will correctly laugh on your face.

What was originally the point of being a 2h tank then? was a nice tradeoff between survability and damage. But in the current system you trade off too much survability for gaining so small advantages.

wellwell... coming up with random sentences/numbers as facts is not a level i like to debate on.
good 2h tanks do 250-300k in an average sc with plenty fighting going on; -that being your proposed 33-50% of good dps players would mean that "real" mdps-classes deal 335-450k. while i have seen those numbers a few times (410k for 2h tank, 470k for choppa being my personally witnessed maximums), thats far from an average scoreboard in scs.
if you dont see the value for groupcompositions in 2h tanks bringing good damage, good survivability, good crowdcontrol and their respective speciality (auras, bellows/blade enchantments or dark protector/oath friend -buffs) into the toolbox, then we simply have different understandings. i still consider your point false, your tromboned "obvious choice" false and your assumptions onesided.

and i still would happily have guard being a shield only-skill.

I see how you are totally misinterpreting the numbers you see in scenarios about 2h tanks, so I will not reply. To any tank that played heavily his character until rr80 in both snb and 2h specs, my words are clear.
Anyway, I changed my mind: I would love to see guard remove from 2h tanks too! So that everyone will finally see how much they would suck, how they would never been invited on any competitive setting, and finally they could get reworked into getting serious damage or decent defense.

[detrap]

Yes please, explain here. To everyone

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

Well, that's just wrong. Any 2h tank that didn't stack up dodge/disrupt would have just melted in any outnumbered fight. Speccing only for parry was never an option. The only difference between 2h tanks and SnB tanks are the 20rp SnB have to spand in block and the fact that for 2h, mixing gear is better. HTL was designed exatcly to give this advantage to SnB, because it was impossible to give decent stas and all three avoidences on gear.

You do know there is nothing preventing a snb tank to parry guard damage and that more than half the tank classes have parry buffs connected to block or block stat?

Yes the benefit having a shield was that blocking is a separate defensive check to parry/dodge/disrupt. However Being snb limits you to less dps no access to 2h abilities and extra strikethrough. Before the guard changes a 2h tank could have access to all of these, be more damage orientated and suffer no penalty in regards to survivability because having 70%-100% parry was just as good or better than having 35% block and parry.

Again, you are wrong. How much parry do you have to stack to avoid melting against BW/SW/Engie/dps AM? I'm not talking about guard damage, but direct hit. Block help you mitigate ranged damage. Having block and parry make you more difficult to kill. If they really wanted make SnB tank more appealing, they would have just to make punt usable with shield and give to tank a valuable reason to spec for SnB. Instead they killed 2h tanks.
Think about it: the skills that require you to have 2h now can't be used, becuse if yoy are SnB you can't use it and if you are 2h you melt if you spec for it. There are whole mastery tree that now are useless outside of SC.

P.S. Avoidences are capped at 75%, if you see more than 75% you are clearly high

I am talking about the guard damage changes. You only needed parry to avoid all the guard damage before the patch was implemented.

Again I've been talking about guard damage mitigation this entire time. Please read. You always melted faster in 2h spec unless you were an SM, that hasn't changed, but the way you receive guard damage has.

PS: There is no 75% cap on defences, explain how Shield Wall works then?

[detrap]

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

You do know there is nothing preventing a snb tank to parry guard damage and that more than half the tank classes have parry buffs connected to block or block stat?

Yes but like I've said before there was little penalty in terms of survivability from guard damage going 2h and you could be more offensively focused in small scale or warband vs warband fights. Again...There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

[Sulorie]

I see how you are totally misinterpreting the numbers you see in scenarios about 2h tanks, so I will not reply. To any tank that played heavily his character until rr80 in both snb and 2h specs, my words are clear.
Anyway, I changed my mind: I would love to see guard remove from 2h tanks too! So that everyone will finally see how much they would suck, how they would never been invited on any competitive setting, and finally they could get reworked into getting serious damage or decent defense.

Have you not seen those dmg aura chosens, dealing a few 100k damage? They must be really useful.

[Ysaran]

Before the changes...all defendable guard damage was transferred over to the tank as physical damage only, therefore it could only be blocked or parried. Hence 2h tanks only needed to focus on stacking parry and ignore dodge and disrupt in order to avoid guard damage, which was usually better than a snb tank could. There was nearly no point running snb outside of shield required abilities and htl which is rarely used in cities.

Well, that's just wrong. Any 2h tank that didn't stack up dodge/disrupt would have just melted in any outnumbered fight. Speccing only for parry was never an option. The only difference between 2h tanks and SnB tanks are the 20rp SnB have to spand in block and the fact that for 2h, mixing gear is better. HTL was designed exatcly to give this advantage to SnB, because it was impossible to give decent stas and all three avoidences on gear.

Yes the benefit having a shield was that blocking is a separate defensive check to parry/dodge/disrupt. However Being snb limits you to less dps no access to 2h abilities and extra strikethrough. Before the guard changes a 2h tank could have access to all of these, be more damage orientated and suffer no penalty in regards to survivability because having 70%-100% parry was just as good or better than having 35% block and parry.

Again, you are wrong. How much parry do you have to stack to avoid melting against BW/SW/Engie/dps AM? I'm not talking about guard damage, but direct hit. Block help you mitigate ranged damage. Having block and parry make you more difficult to kill. If they really wanted make SnB tank more appealing, they would have just to make punt usable with shield and give to tank a valuable reason to spec for SnB. Instead they killed 2h tanks.
Think about it: the skills that require you to have 2h now can't be used, becuse if yoy are SnB you can't use it and if you are 2h you melt if you spec for it. There are whole mastery tree that now are useless outside of SC.

P.S. Avoidences are capped at 75%, if you see more than 75% you are clearly high

I am talking about the guard damage changes. You only needed parry to avoid all the guard damage before the patch was implemented.

Again I've been talking about guard damage mitigation this entire time. Please read. You always melted faster in 2h spec unless you were an SM, that hasn't changed, but the way you receive guard damage has.

PS: There is no 75% cap on defences, explain how Shield Wall works then?

I know you were talking about guard damage, but my point is: it doesn't exist only guard damage. Block help you with all three avoidences, parry with melee attacks and guard damage and dodge/disrupt with ranged attacks. The downside of being 2h is that you don't have block to mitigate ranged damege, since you can't increase you dodge/disrupt with tactics or abilities.
The game is designed to have lower dodge/disrupt rate. You get very few dodge/disrupt from gear, you get no dodge by tactic and there are only two tactics that give disrupt. In terms of RP, you pay both dodge/disrupt the same as parry, even thought you get 2 avoidences at the price of one. HTL gives you huge amount ofboth dodge/disrupt, but no parry or block. All this, because tanks were designed to rely on parry and block mainly.
Block, Parry, Dodge and Disrupt are capped at 75%. HTL gives 45% Dodge and Disrupt to you, and 15% Dodge and Disrupt to those behinde your back. The 15% bonus can stack up to 3 times by receiving HTL from 3 different tanks.
Before patch you needed only parry to mitigate guard damage as 2h, but this wasn't making you as hard as a SnB. You always have traded survivability (and skills locked behinde shield )for utility (better punt and skills locked behinde 2h). Irt was a fair trade, but now is only bs.

[nocturnalguest]

@detrap learn some basics of probability theory. 1 roll of 75% < 2 rolls of 50% and 65% (you use buffed parry value but unbuffed block/parry to fit your "argument"?)
also you overestimate parry level on properly geared 2h tanks way too much. with bloodlord it become possible to casually reach the cap with buffs (75%). average unbuffed level is (and was) around 40-50%. in proper environment you would also get at least 10% of that debuffed (or 50%) with armor stripped on top.
snb tanks without any problems reach unbuffed 40% block on invader level with rr spent.
in no wonderland 2h tanks had more survivebility than snb.

You are wrong here. There is no 75% cap on defensive abilities. Before the patch, SM's could easily reach above 100% parry and avoid the guard damage better than any other snb tank in the game. BO's suffer a speed penalty to their block channel, BG's and IB's is on a long cooldown.

We are talking about guard damage here and buffing your parry above 70% was enough for justifying not using a shield to absorb guard damage in small scale and warband vs warband fights.

No im not.
And ill actually be so very kind just today and just for you.I will educate you a little bit so you wont be spreading blatantly false information at least on this particular case.
Here - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31229&start=10#p353888
and dalen confirms he didnt change that here - viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40906&start=30#p436361
If you still cant figure i'll help and point out that cap is there: hidden in this tricky formula - Cap25%((Your_DefenseStat / Enemy_OffenseStat) * 7.5)

I do understand that its very hard to reach you with any amounts of logic/common sense/counter arguments/etc so i will propose one simple test if you have SM - turn on combat logger in your enemy, spec 2h and go in orvr, preferable into some siege or fort and set yourself up into some melee ball while using wods. even with your 100% parry you will still get hit, imagine.

No offense, i have nothing against you personally, its just you are clueless and wrong with your claims.

[detrap]

Well, that's just wrong. Any 2h tank that didn't stack up dodge/disrupt would have just melted in any outnumbered fight. Speccing only for parry was never an option. The only difference between 2h tanks and SnB tanks are the 20rp SnB have to spand in block and the fact that for 2h, mixing gear is better. HTL was designed exatcly to give this advantage to SnB, because it was impossible to give decent stas and all three avoidences on gear.



Again, you are wrong. How much parry do you have to stack to avoid melting against BW/SW/Engie/dps AM? I'm not talking about guard damage, but direct hit. Block help you mitigate ranged damage. Having block and parry make you more difficult to kill. If they really wanted make SnB tank more appealing, they would have just to make punt usable with shield and give to tank a valuable reason to spec for SnB. Instead they killed 2h tanks.
Think about it: the skills that require you to have 2h now can't be used, becuse if yoy are SnB you can't use it and if you are 2h you melt if you spec for it. There are whole mastery tree that now are useless outside of SC.

P.S. Avoidences are capped at 75%, if you see more than 75% you are clearly high

I am talking about the guard damage changes. You only needed parry to avoid all the guard damage before the patch was implemented.

Again I've been talking about guard damage mitigation this entire time. Please read. You always melted faster in 2h spec unless you were an SM, that hasn't changed, but the way you receive guard damage has.

PS: There is no 75% cap on defences, explain how Shield Wall works then?

I know you were talking about guard damage, but my point is: it doesn't exist only guard damage. Block help you with all three avoidences, parry with melee attacks and guard damage and dodge/disrupt with ranged attacks. The downside of being 2h is that you don't have block to mitigate ranged damege, since you can't increase you dodge/disrupt with tactics or abilities.
The game is designed to have lower dodge/disrupt rate. You get very few dodge/disrupt from gear, you get no dodge by tactic and there are only two tactics that give disrupt. In terms of RP, you pay both dodge/disrupt the same as parry, even thought you get 2 avoidences at the price of one. HTL gives you huge amount ofboth dodge/disrupt, but no parry or block. All this, because tanks were designed to rely on parry and block mainly.
Block, Parry, Dodge and Disrupt are capped at 75%. HTL gives 45% Dodge and Disrupt to you, and 15% Dodge and Disrupt to those behinde your back. The 15% bonus can stack up to 3 times by receiving HTL from 3 different tanks.
Before patch you needed only parry to mitigate guard damage as 2h, but this wasn't making you as hard as a SnB. You always have traded survivability (and skills locked behinde shield )for utility (better punt and skills locked behinde 2h). Irt was a fair trade, but now is only bs.

The direct damage you take as 2h has not changed yes. But you are not a primary target in city fights or small scale, and unless you are an SM you have no place face tanking multiple warbands in orvr without a shield.

[detrap]

@detrap learn some basics of probability theory. 1 roll of 75% < 2 rolls of 50% and 65% (you use buffed parry value but unbuffed block/parry to fit your "argument"?)
also you overestimate parry level on properly geared 2h tanks way too much. with bloodlord it become possible to casually reach the cap with buffs (75%). average unbuffed level is (and was) around 40-50%. in proper environment you would also get at least 10% of that debuffed (or 50%) with armor stripped on top.
snb tanks without any problems reach unbuffed 40% block on invader level with rr spent.
in no wonderland 2h tanks had more survivebility than snb.

You are wrong here. There is no 75% cap on defensive abilities. Before the patch, SM's could easily reach above 100% parry and avoid the guard damage better than any other snb tank in the game. BO's suffer a speed penalty to their block channel, BG's and IB's is on a long cooldown.

We are talking about guard damage here and buffing your parry above 70% was enough for justifying not using a shield to absorb guard damage in small scale and warband vs warband fights.

No im not.
And ill actually be so very kind just today and just for you.I will educate you a little bit so you wont be spreading blatantly false information at least on this particular case.
Here - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31229&start=10#p353888
and dalen confirms he didnt change that here - viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40906&start=30#p436361
If you still cant figure i'll help and point out that cap is there: hidden in this tricky formula - Cap25%((Your_DefenseStat / Enemy_OffenseStat) * 7.5)

I do understand that its very hard to reach you with any amounts of logic/common sense/counter arguments/etc so i will propose one simple test if you have SM - turn on combat logger in your enemy, spec 2h and go in orvr, preferable into some siege or fort and set yourself up into some melee ball while using wods. even with your 100% parry you will still get hit, imagine.

No offense, i have nothing against you personally, its just you are clueless and wrong with your claims.

From conversations I've had with a dev they have said there is no cap, and reason you take damage still with 100%/200% parry is either you are hit with strikethrough/aoe/undefendable attacks/morales/already dotted up or debuffed. Checked my combat logs plenty of times with 2h and snb. No damage taken after 10-20+ consecutive hits. No guard damage at all when using shield wall or oath stone either. The source you linked is from 2019 that the guy is referring to conversations he has had with devs and a post from 2014. /shrug?

No offense taken but I think it's cheap to question someone's judgement about a game with code that's not clearly laid out in black and white. Please correct me if I jump the gun on an aspect of the game but don't jump the gun to question personal discernment.

[Sulorie]

Block is capped at 100%, all 3 other avoidance stats are capped at 75%, according to dev statement in the past year. Overcapping makes sense to counter strike through.