How do you feel about Squig herders now?

[Sundowner]

WLs are as strong as SH? yeah dude totally

[Gurf]

"What problems do you have with WLs?

The erstwhile trolling-est class that ever existed in any MMO.

You are like 8 months out of Date, the only class WL can beat 1v1 is probably a Sorc now. Stands a chance against a ranged SH if they are a bad player and get lucky, but no chance against MSH.

[zulnam]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

SH hasn't been my main for a very long time, but this rework didn't make me reconsider that.

I primarily enjoy playing range AoE, and rSH now has none. Beyond making it unappealing to myself personally, it also means the range specs continue to remain niche. Good for small scale; not a main scope of this game.

This makes me prefer SW, which has a somewhat competent AoE spec (that can cause some respectable numbers with the right gear, in RvR) and a very bursty range ST build.

Compared to that, SH now has two ST range specs. mSH is still pretty strong, and has the most AoE of the 3 specs, but it feels weird for a range class to have it's best spec be the melee one (and look so ugly while doing it, too).

But generally speaking the changes do seem positive to me. Armor penetration, increased damage, active ability range stun (as opposed to it being on the pet), gas squig range boost increase. Just a shame the direction is not one that I personally enjoy.

[Ysaran]

SH now has two ST range specs. mSH is still pretty strong, and has the most AoE of the 3 specs, but it feels weird for a range class to have it's best spec be the melee one (and look so ugly while doing it, too).

Ok, this is not a critic, just some random thought I had reading your post.

The game surely rely heavily on the RvR for his entertainment, but not everything revolves around AoE. In RvR there is plenty of space for ST classes, and much more in the rest of the game (see whole smallscale or SCs). While AoE specs are meta in most end game content I wouldn't call these "best specs". Some classes aren't meant for large scale, and this is knew. To have a spec that let you perform well in large scale is the bare minimum, imho. Also "best spec" I think that has just too many different meaning: for a person who play mainly duo/trio the ranged spec will be the "best spec", while for someone who play mainly in WBs it will be the worst. Just for example.

What I get from your post (which can totaly be a bias of mine, obviously) is that you find strange that a ranged class perform so well while melee specced, but I think that this kind of reasoning is quite flawed. Indeed if SH performed well in large scale in ranged spec, then that would means that the whole concept fo the class has been twisted, since the concept is (was?) a kiting class specialized in ST damage.

Actually I don't get any reasoning like: "this a class tha fill the role X, so it shouldn't perform so well if specced Y" (e.g. dps AM/shaman/dok/wp, melee SH/SW, and so on). Every spec should have its own dignity or not exists at all. Can't see why a ranged class can't perform well in melee.
But I agree on one thing, though. mSH is ugly af, the whole rework should have revolved around changing its appearence

[Neverever]

"What problems do you have with WLs?

The erstwhile trolling-est class that ever existed in any MMO.

You are like 8 months out of Date, the only class WL can beat 1v1 is probably a Sorc now. Stands a chance against a ranged SH if they are a bad player and get lucky, but no chance against MSH.

If Sorc is the only class a player can beat on 1vs1 with WL then I think he/she must be a really bad one.

[NSKaneda]

I've been in enough duels during live to know one thing: in 1vs1 the class does not matter, it's all down to a player.

[zulnam]

SH now has two ST range specs. mSH is still pretty strong, and has the most AoE of the 3 specs, but it feels weird for a range class to have it's best spec be the melee one (and look so ugly while doing it, too).

Ok, this is not a critic, just some random thought I had reading your post.

The game surely rely heavily on the RvR for his entertainment, but not everything revolves around AoE. In RvR there is plenty of space for ST classes, and much more in the rest of the game (see whole smallscale or SCs). While AoE specs are meta in most end game content I wouldn't call these "best specs". Some classes aren't meant for large scale, and this is knew. To have a spec that let you perform well in large scale is the bare minimum, imho. Also "best spec" I think that has just too many different meaning: for a person who play mainly duo/trio the ranged spec will be the "best spec", while for someone who play mainly in WBs it will be the worst. Just for example.

What I get from your post (which can totaly be a bias of mine, obviously) is that you find strange that a ranged class perform so well while melee specced, but I think that this kind of reasoning is quite flawed. Indeed if SH performed well in large scale in ranged spec, then that would means that the whole concept fo the class has been twisted, since the concept is (was?) a kiting class specialized in ST damage.

Actually I don't get any reasoning like: "this a class tha fill the role X, so it shouldn't perform so well if specced Y" (e.g. dps AM/shaman/dok/wp, melee SH/SW, and so on). Every spec should have its own dignity or not exists at all. Can't see why a ranged class can't perform well in melee.
But I agree on one thing, though. mSH is ugly af, the whole rework should have revolved around changing its appearence

Oh no, you're right. Ideally we want all specs to be viable in their role, and not everyone needs to be AoE, that's just my preference when playing dps.

Problem is there are 72 specs. Not exactly a small feat to do, let alone be recognised. (Which side is op these days? Lost track )

[teiloh]

The SH, as a class, has way too much of a combination of the following: mobility, survivability, versatility, CC, utility and single target burst.

There's no reason why an excellent RDPS should be able to just swap into MDPS mode and contribute reasonably to an AOE blob, or why it should have more CC than its two pseudo-mirrors combined.

This is simply a case of a tide of unfounded complaints working to make an already strong class even more powerful.

Yes, I agree there are a lot of fiddly parts to the Squig and it's not easy to reconcile range and melee given the game mechanics, but I feel like a better start would have been just fixing pet issues first and foremost.

Maybe the problem is that people just play classes just as strong as SH like WL and somehow can't really accept the fact there is another class that against whom their victory is not certain. Seriously, can't really find the words to describe how pathetic it is for a WL player to complain about SH...

This might not have been the case for the entirety of RoR given the fabled Guardian tree changes I hear of, but WLs are and always have been manageable even in the days of 150 range Fetch. I only see the class as free rps when I play Magus and Squig so maybe ymmv with other classes. Their "uber attacks" of Pounce/CS/PA are easily neutralized - simply keep moving and they will rarely get a chance to catch up, and when they do you just have your whole group/zerg turn on them and kill them. This isn't like Squigs who are much more durable and have much better escape and mobility tools. And a detaunt easily handles WL burst if they even do hit you.

WL are good for utterly destroying people who mismanage detaunt and are not paying attention to their surroundings though. Pounce is also quite nice as it reduces dead-time if you have tons of WL and they engage to AOE in a head-on fight, but it's not even close to one of the game's most effective strats.

[Neverever]

The SH, as a class, has way too much of a combination of the following: mobility, survivability, versatility, CC, utility and single target burst.

There's no reason why an excellent RDPS should be able to just swap into MDPS mode and contribute reasonably to an AOE blob, or why it should have more CC than its two pseudo-mirrors combined.

This is simply a case of a tide of unfounded complaints working to make an already strong class even more powerful.

Yes, I agree there are a lot of fiddly parts to the Squig and it's not easy to reconcile range and melee given the game mechanics, but I feel like a better start would have been just fixing pet issues first and foremost.

Maybe the problem is that people just play classes just as strong as SH like WL and somehow can't really accept the fact there is another class that against whom their victory is not certain. Seriously, can't really find the words to describe how pathetic it is for a WL player to complain about SH...

This might not have been the case for the entirety of RoR given the fabled Guardian tree changes I hear of, but WLs are and always have been manageable even in the days of 150 range Fetch. I only see the class as free rps when I play Magus and Squig so maybe ymmv with other classes. Their "uber attacks" of Pounce/CS/PA are easily neutralized - simply keep moving and they will rarely get a chance to catch up, and when they do you just have your whole group/zerg turn on them and kill them. This isn't like Squigs who are much more durable and have much better escape and mobility tools. And a detaunt easily handles WL burst if they even do hit you.

WL are good for utterly destroying people who mismanage detaunt and are not paying attention to their surroundings though. Pounce is also quite nice as it reduces dead-time if you have tons of WL and they engage to AOE in a head-on fight, but it's not even close to one of the game's most effective strats.

WL with the notorious guardian tree was a joke and everybody who faced it during those times would confirm that. With that said WL is still a powerful class that is able to destroy many classes within it's 3sc knock down. And as you clearly stated to get the good WLs, who are usually defensive and can still chop you into two in seconds, down you need a group or zerg to be with you. What people complain is usually that it has a lot of CC tools. I agree to that on some points but what about the counter abilities and a counter class order has unlike Destro ? WL class alone is designed around that. For instance, order has 2 pounce abilities, 2 ranged knock downs. If you suggest WL is manageable with correct positioning and help of your group then isn't it true for SH and Shammies as well ? What is champ's challenge for ? Or WL M1 ? What about IB and KOTBS perma snare ? For instance, SW is in a better situation than SH when it comes to survive from the situations that you got caught and snared basically with the M1 cleanse. What are the CC tools that makes SH a lot better than SW in that sense ? It is a class( I played both after their rework) which is better than SH both on its melee and ranged phase. So I don't understand all these reproach.

[Sundowner]

The SH, as a class, has way too much of a combination of the following: mobility, survivability, versatility, CC, utility and single target burst.

There's no reason why an excellent RDPS should be able to just swap into MDPS mode and contribute reasonably to an AOE blob, or why it should have more CC than its two pseudo-mirrors combined.

This is simply a case of a tide of unfounded complaints working to make an already strong class even more powerful.

Yes, I agree there are a lot of fiddly parts to the Squig and it's not easy to reconcile range and melee given the game mechanics, but I feel like a better start would have been just fixing pet issues first and foremost.

Maybe the problem is that people just play classes just as strong as SH like WL and somehow can't really accept the fact there is another class that against whom their victory is not certain. Seriously, can't really find the words to describe how pathetic it is for a WL player to complain about SH...

This might not have been the case for the entirety of RoR given the fabled Guardian tree changes I hear of, but WLs are and always have been manageable even in the days of 150 range Fetch. I only see the class as free rps when I play Magus and Squig so maybe ymmv with other classes. Their "uber attacks" of Pounce/CS/PA are easily neutralized - simply keep moving and they will rarely get a chance to catch up, and when they do you just have your whole group/zerg turn on them and kill them. This isn't like Squigs who are much more durable and have much better escape and mobility tools. And a detaunt easily handles WL burst if they even do hit you.

WL are good for utterly destroying people who mismanage detaunt and are not paying attention to their surroundings though. Pounce is also quite nice as it reduces dead-time if you have tons of WL and they engage to AOE in a head-on fight, but it's not even close to one of the game's most effective strats.

WL with the notorious guardian tree was a joke and everybody who faced it during those times would confirm that. With that said WL is still a powerful class that is able to destroy many classes within it's 3sc knock down. And as you clearly stated to get the good WLs, who are usually defensive and can still chop you into two in seconds, down you need a group or zerg to be with you. What people complain is usually that it has a lot of CC tools. I agree to that on some points but what about the counter abilities and a counter class order has unlike Destro ? WL class alone is designed around that. For instance, order has 2 pounce abilities, 2 ranged knock downs. If you suggest WL is manageable with correct positioning and help of your group then isn't it true for SH and Shammies as well ? What is champ's challenge for ? Or WL M1 ? What about IB and KOTBS perma snare ? For instance, SW is in a better situation than SH when it comes to survive from the situations that you got caught and snared basically with the M1 cleanse. What are the CC tools that makes SH a lot better than SW in that sense ? It is a class( I played both after their rework) which is better than SH both on its melee and ranged phase. So I don't understand all these reproach.

How can u compare melee sw and melee SH? they are totally different classes with different functions and roles. mSH is more kind of aoe WL but a bit better.
Also, defensive WL who can chop you in 2 secs? that was before guardian nerf. Now if you spec guardian u still can't really go defensive, because 1. pet needs str and ws from your items to deal at least some dmg, 2.WLs only strategy for 1v1 and smallscale is burst, and to do good burst you need high dmg.
and who are that defensive WLs exactly? Everyone I see just run traditional dmg builds.