Return of Reckoning

TenTonHammer wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:42 pm

Detangler wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:19 pm The ones that complain about long queue times are the ones playing DPS classes. Notice how every pug warband always needs tanks and healers? I'd venture the scenario matchmaker has the same spread.

or maybe just maybe its because of the stupid system that the devs put in thats full of backwards ass thinking they shared a few days ago

if your not "a deftard geared and specd tank AND using a SnB" you are classified as a dps

So its all 2H tanks + "those 20" ACTUAL dps + dps healers all put into the same pool for the "dps" slot in scenarios

So yes dps players exist because the devs created a poor system that unnecessarily and unfairly punishes actual dps players for being dps

aye the lacking of pop sich has been created by dev system not by the players. any argument regarding the low pop is due the system not the player.

TenTonHammer wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:42 pm

Detangler wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:19 pm The ones that complain about long queue times are the ones playing DPS classes. Notice how every pug warband always needs tanks and healers? I'd venture the scenario matchmaker has the same spread.

or maybe just maybe its because of the stupid system that the devs put in thats full of backwards ass thinking they shared a few days ago

if your not "a deftard geared and specd tank AND using a SnB" you are classified as a dps

So its all 2H tanks + "those 20" ACTUAL dps + dps healers all put into the same pool for the "dps" slot in scenarios

So yes dps players exist because the devs created a poor system that unnecessarily and unfairly punishes actual dps players for being dps

I often debate internally whether to respond to people that openly call staff trash, or just hand out the warnings and let themselves burn. On one hand, you should really show quite a bit more respect to staff here, baseline, no questions asked, no context required. On the other hand, the amount of crap that gets stirred up by some people actually does need to be addressed because it spreads like an infection and people believe what they're told.

I see more misrepresentations about scenarios in each thread, and I can only hope that a random player checking the forums will at least look for dev responses among the dumpster fire of outrage, or actually play scenarios themselves with an objective mindset about the results they see and the intentions we have.

I wouldn't go so far as to call you an outright liar, but I can skirt the line right?

In your mythical situation where 20 DPS are in the queue, it would form at very least a 6v6 scenario. More likely it would form a 10v10, but we can start with 6v6 as that's the minimum for a scenario to start. There's not enough players for the archtype selection to matter, so it just fills the scen anyway.

After a minute, the scen manager checks to see if anyone is queued up and will fill in more spots with as many people as can be matched up on each side. Archtype is checked, if it can't find what it wants, it grabs whoever, even a dps tank.

Scen manager repeats this every minute.
Every 5 minutes the scen manager checks if enough people are in the queue to launch new scenarios.

This is all assuming your scenarios are being queued equally by both sides. Archtype only plays a factor in instances where there are a lot of people in the queue. If you want to be in a scen with def tanks and healing healers, then roll the dice as a dps class, or you queue up with a tanky tank or a healy healer, OR you play as a tanky tank or a healy healer. Everyone else is tossed into the free for all.

With totally blind matchmaking, you would never have a well balanced scen, you would mostly have a bunch of **** ones. Unless you were perhaps advocating to dilute balanced scens because you know the secrets of queueing as a balanced group and you want to weaken your opposition.

Tell me if you've ever noticed this happening.

One side gets their ass kicked, they determine the fight they just lost was so one-sided there's really no reason to queue up right away. Maybe they wait 5 minutes to get out of that "rotation" to try and avoid them instead of queuing up right away.

So the group that just stomped them get to do the same thing to the next guys. The second group also in their eternal wisdom decide getting stomped that badly isn't great, so they wait 5 minutes to get out of that "rotation".

The first group waits 10 minutes without a pop, and get thrown right back against the team they waited to avoid. Stomp again? Sure, but now that first group says **** it. They go back to RvR, or maybe try and get a dungeon started. Or get their keyboard out and start complaining about the gear gap or the scenario brackets, or whatever else. This likely spreads into /3 and people start a pity party about how OP whatever class on X side is, and how much devs favor the other realm and obviously don't even play on our realm because how could they be so dumb.

The second group also gets stomped, they see the noise in /3, also say **** it, and find something else to do. RvR instead? Dungeon? Maybe just join in the /3 parade?

The remaining brave warriors trying to queue notice a drastic reduction in the speed of pops. As more people avoid whatever group is dominating, the remaining players more and more likely get sucked up into those pops. They get worn down over time, and eventually it dries up as people can't be bothered to take abuse without getting something. Pops slow to a crawl.

We live in a society however, and as one realm starts to win, they also start to grow. The number of people on the winning side start to dilute the damage that the organized group did simply by playing worse and losing a couple times. Morale on the losing side recovers, or at least new people join in oblivious to the problems and ignore the wailing in /3 they've grown far too used to.

Getting your **** kicked in repeatedly in a single play session is kind of a **** system. In a small community where you know before you get to the first objective how this is all going to play out reflects badly on the small community that perpetuates this problem.

Here's some common feedback I've collected.

They're killing PvP!
You're not allowed to kill people in scenarios anymore!
Objectives are the only thing that matters!
PvE Scenarios or get banned!
Punishment! Punishment!
Devs are virgins! Moms basement! Neckbeards! (yeah.. really..)

I know what that's all about, and it's dumb (very adult and manly) kids yelling and throwing their toys around. None of those things are remotely true except that my beard does literally grow on my neck a bit, but not the figurative fedora tipping m'lady beta part. We're not out to destroy scenarios, or ruin them, or really do anything but improve on things.

TL:DR

Having an archtype system in the queue is intended to help players hopefully get somewhat more balanced teams, and a chance at at least performing well enough to get some rewards. Being close to winning is a hell of a lot better for everyone than losing with 0 points and 0 kills. If you think your dps tank is such a force to be reckoned with, convince a healer how amazing you are to buddy up with and enjoy.

Having a domination system in scens is intended to discourage kill-farming and get people the hell out of bad situations, which I've gone into plenty of detail in another post somewhere else. It's new, it pokes a finger in the eye of people that find scenarios a lovely little renown farm of undergeared players, and boy are they mad.

TenTonHammer wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:42 pm

Detangler wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:19 pm The ones that complain about long queue times are the ones playing DPS classes. Notice how every pug warband always needs tanks and healers? I'd venture the scenario matchmaker has the same spread.

or maybe just maybe its because of the stupid system that the devs put in thats full of backwards ass thinking they shared a few days ago

if your not "a deftard geared and specd tank AND using a SnB" you are classified as a dps

So its all 2H tanks + "those 20" ACTUAL dps + dps healers all put into the same pool for the "dps" slot in scenarios

So yes dps players exist because the devs created a poor system that unnecessarily and unfairly punishes actual dps players for being dps

2h tanks i agree with you on. I disagree with you on DPS healers tho. I'd want 2 real healers in my party, not some pewpew AM or shammy, and MM trying to give those priority makes for a better fight if it can work properly.

Maybe Wargrimnir should join one of these pug farming groups and see for himself what its all about.

As wargrimnir stated in many more words: The development team can only fix code. They cannot fix players.

This is a player problem, not a code issue. The only thing that sucks worse than not getting an SC pop is getting one with no tanks or no healers. Tanks and healers are less fun to play when compared to the satisfaction of Zapping or Pouncing another player into a pale pink mist. Play your tank or play your healer if you want wins.

you think too much about premades and other garbage that interferes. a typical case when due to one tree the whole forest is not visible. in any case, there are two teams (A and B), one must win and the other lose. It would be very good to always have an ideal situation when the balance of power is equal. But if on the one hand there is a balanced team with 80+ , and on the other 3x and a little 40 without good equipment, the outcome will be a foregone conclusion. Is it worth it in such a situation to refuse doing scs?I dont think so. People themselves will refuse to queue for a certain time until the 80+ group leaves. Not so bad, in fact, the idea of ​​dividing not only by classes but also by the level of equipment and rr, the main thing is that this would only not further reduce pops. In general, I doubt that this problem has any solution at all. In my opinion there are only a few indirect solutions that may help a little, but maybe not help, anyway need trying:
- make it possible at the discretion of the leader of the warband to que sc in the warband(indeed increase pops).
- make more pug scenarios.
- create the separation of the level of rr and gear, when there is good online and a sufficient number of people in pops.
- introduce rotation of people in the queue, that is, exclude the possibility when the same people always playing scenarios, while other less fortunate ones continue to queue.

There is a good tool to patient for scenarios, that give you more time to look a movie or to shave :

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=20524&hilit=scenario+alerter

I am healer and im convinced that some s+b tank are badder than some bad 2h ...

If you spec a 2h tank hybrid or def it will perform.well, you dont need a full def tank for sc.

Well i don't see much problem in SC's, yea the new buff for the loosing team is kind of a good idea,
which isnt optmal worked out (in my mind).

But we had even dropping numbers of SC's pop's months bevor that patch.

I see more than just 1 reason why people don't Que up for SC's..
But the biggest one i see in RvR. I remeber earlier times, when we had a full server with 1400/1400 player,
and with the bigger number over all the zerg was not that big, as it is now..

The changes in RvR made it more and more a "zerg" game, we have at EU Prime about 150-200 ppl on both sides,
sitting in 4-8WB's and camping WC or keep. So 300-400 people are just literally not able to Que for SC's,
because you cant while in warband.

Whole alliance with about 3-4 premade's left the game last year, or joining warbands.

You can't do anything as solo or small scale party against those mass.
If the zergs would split over multiple zones (2 or 3) more people would do 6 or 12 man, or duo, trio.
Then they would Que up in their sessions.
Yes i know, you can attack multiple zones, but that doesnt split the zerg when you need at least a warband to kill the keep lord in less than 30 minuts and therefor you mustn't have defenders.

Already getting to long, but the pool of players playing SC's and RvR is the same,
you cant magicaly fix SC's without change RvR

agree main reason poor pop of sc is rvr ( forts). also game clases is not balanced. sc dont give anymore good armor. now we have bastion stairs to farm dps gear for heal/tank and defensive gear for dps. weapons also drop there. so majority is in bastion stairs.
p.s some months ago gms said there will not be sc armors after vanquisher (i dodnt know sc armor after dominmator) only weapons.
p.s.s.s zerg is live at moment.