Bozzax wrote:
New testers (ex alts) very often lack the basic stuff like potions and tallies or basic ruin gear. The diff is real and any in conq/dom mix 60+ can pretty much kill them solo and feel good about them selves.
I'm saying making sure they are ok-ish equipped would enhance THEIR experience and make the 32-40/50 playtime more enjoyable.
The only reason to keep it is as is to make yours and my playing experience more enjoyable which I fear is less bene long term.
If it were up to me I'd boost ppl in the 32-40/40 range to a level where they even had a minimal edge on 40/40-50 toons.I know this goes against the view of those who needs to feel superior.
Those really new people who struggle for some reason should be pro-active and ask for help.
I think a lot players play less good, when you take experienced players standards, but they don't recognize it and just keep playing. They might lose more than they win but don't care.
Let's say you join a sc and die significantly more than other players in your team for various reasons, then you most likely do something wrong. The question is then, do you recognize, that something is wrong or do you just continue to play the way you do.
It doesn't matter what rank you have, when you lack this self-reflection. You will struggle all the time, maybe without even noticing it, because you have no motivation to change anything.
When experienced players have only little or no problems progressing sub40 in t4, then the lower rank or lower rr itself is not the core problem.
When you can farm half an hour to get potions for 20h playtime, then the time investment is not that big and still you are right that many people don't use them.
The advice chat ingame is often full of trolls but usually people get their answers. Same goes for the forums.
Nevertheless, the new player seeking for help has to make the first step, because it is not that bad for low ranks as people try to claim.
The question is how people play their class and how self-critical they are.
Hargrim wrote:
Well, the direction was and is known to the player base, it was not some kind of secret that was hidden and never spoke about.
'18th December' never was the goal and as far as I know it never will be.
Whey You will have a some time and patience, please write shortly something about direction and final target. Maybe it simply too much topics to find such manifest.
Have a nice day!
As it was repeated time and time again, the main goal is to make this game as good as possible and better than the thing that was created and delivered by Mythic. Above is quite vague, but that's the essence. That's it, but as you can see the version from '18th' is not the goal.
Darosh wrote:
TLDR: We need more organized guilds, at best an equal amount of them on both sides... and probably the established guilds to dial it back a little (= stop/prevent stacking organized forces [Note: I am aware that pugs will be pugs, and A. will be A. ...]) to give their opposition a chance to improve. Practice sticks alot better if you are not getting roflstomped 24/7, as you then can actually gauge and perceive improvement ~ I figure.
Well, that's why I'm a member of TUP. I hate unorganized play (in german= "reindaddeln") and I strive to organize myself in every game I've played.
I talked about it with Wam intern. fragmentation is a huge problem this server has. many ppl. have there 13 and a half member guilds and are "the proud leader of that" and could fusion with another guild or forge a working alliance for a 3/7 weekly warband, instead they are too proud or whatever and prefer to take an unimportant role (members suffer from this, because the game is not really playable under those circumstances) on this server. That's why you only get a *rolleyes* from us if we read lfm to create new guild, not because they don't join us, just because they advance the problem even more.
And sorry to say Darosh but your formulation is lackluster, we don't need "more organized guilds", we need the existing guilds to organize or to perform actions for a restructure or to activate alliances. cause more guilds = more fragmentation. We just need moreorganized guilds. this is by far the best option from the playerside. No dev team involved whatsoever. the lakes would be full, and the "hard to achive" conq gear would be quite common. TUP is to some degree a result of that mentioned actions. "Original TUP players" + "Old Karak Norn Players" + "Old Nazgul Players" + "New Nazgul Players" + Recruitment efforts to fix open positions".
So if you evaluate the experience for return players and new players:
- Return players come back because:
1 - Rush of challenging fights where deep class skill and team interdependence/teamwork is really needed, same rush people get from playing in quality a football/rugby/hockey/basketball (6 man) sports team, you need defenders who know how to defend, attacker's who know how to attack, and a leader who knows how to coordinate it.
Spoiler:
(lot of kings own members still around in organised regular guild wb guilds because they get kills, not so many lvling/pug guild players still around, because they don't get kills,the rush is not loosing or winning, the rush is getting kills from challenging situations)
2 - Off pre-made wb time SC's pop well and as long you have at least 2 healers and tanks, are challenging and fun
Spoiler:
(destro have better amount of tanks/healers but they also have more pre made wb guilds, therefore need created for tanks/healers to fill desired wb compositions, watch TUP videos for 3 months and how composition has changed/improved as people level or log classes more needed to make ideal composition, either existing or new members)
3 - Character progression, gaining levels, renown levels for extra abilities over others, access to gear which enables you to effectively try off spec, RVR spec, SC spec, cosmetic gear to look cool (now boe, cosmetic some of the highest priced on AH)
4 - Character depth, alts, so much more to learn and explore with each class and character
Spoiler:
It would take around 2400 hours to level all 24 classes to renown rank 40, that's playing 40 hours a week solid for just over a year, assuming you stop at renown rank 40 with each character, you can't "beat" the game easily, and that's before you explore builds/setups. Learning 864 abilities, 576 tactics, 288 morale abilities, then how the synergies within a class can work, then how they can combine with other classes, there is so much to explore.
5 - Game world depth, it's a cool game world, and has and keeps evolving so well, it's also huge with so many things to do and explore.
6 - Players come for the game world, gear, shinies, but stay for the team PvP rush experience getting kills from challenging fights.
- New players stay because:
1 - They have a fun challenging PvP experience, RVR or SC, they get that rush return players come back for of working as a team that relies on each other helping each other to win, eg tank guards DPS, allowing DPS to live longer and do more damage pushing enemy back, allowing healer to stay back and safer and keep both of them alive.
Spoiler:
- You don't install a PvP game to not do PvP, the website front page does a reasonable job of setting expectations.
- Also this PvP teamwork rush is unique to ROR, when you play other games, and come back it feels a little clunky but nice clunky.
- FPS you got fast gun, big gun, long range gun, not a lot of depth or team strategy here but very fast and fluid.
RoR you have 3 archetypes, and they totally own any fight when they support each other with their archtype unique team abilities, guard/heal/higher damage, 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 DPS can kill a pug wb, see Teefz/Simtex, DPS can't kill for very long unless a healer keeps them alive, and if a tank guards them makes it twice as easy to heal, and DPS can kill even quicker if buffed and their targets guard has been punted away by ally tank and targets healer has been stifled by ally healer, and ally healer can stay safe at back, if your DPS is able to push the enemy back because they have not died, each one in the triangle needs each other to shine and reach optimal.
- And even this optimal is different, scenario 6 man 1 tank needs to be off spec, RVR all tanks need to be def spec for example.
- Another good clunky feeling is in RoR you have to join a group/wb to benefit from guard/buffs/aoe heals, I think this is good, because as a result firstly you choose to join a team, secondly it creates a leader, this is important because teams work better with clear direction, even pug with clear direction can do really well, but soon as that leader logs and no-one else wants to be leader, it falls apart and people go elsewhere, the game structure tools help create the organised team environment, rather than just have solofest, which people simply log off/X realm to avoid.
2 - They find a way to repeat this experience, guild/friend, so some guilds often level alts via pre made scenario's and recruit while doing so, this can pick up new players, train them, and importantly give them repeat access to that rush feeling of getting kills in challenging fights.
Spoiler:
- Another example Ocara is in T3 RVR at the moment, and already the shift in population to destro can be seen, because he creates an organised experience where you have a better chance than with a random inexperienced pug of getting kills from challenging situations, repeat access.
-As previously stated by others, new players will take weeks to get to level 40, your not addicted yet at this point, gotta fight in pre made warband or 3/6 man to get addicted.
3 - They get enough support to understand how to play the game and advance, not everyone picks things up very quickly or played live.
Spoiler:
-How did you learn about talismans, then how to make them, and how did you learn how to lock a zone, or how AH works, where to spend renown points? Try as a new player would where you would find this information.
- The support to get the game installed and running is amazing, the in game support could be better, and really needs to come from the community, advice channel is good, also it would seem most new players join order first and it would seem the most active/vocal in game tagged GM's are 1 order/3 des.
4 - They like how the game feels, some people simply don't, very odd!
I see 2 main pvp experiences in this game, RVR (large-scale) and Scenario's (small-scale) both offer the opportunity to get the rush pvp experience from getting kills in a challenging fight.
A - RVR (large-scale)
B - Scenario's (small-scale)
Some things that would make me/vets/new players play more and are hopefully not a lot of work to achieve are:
A - RVR (large-scale) suggestions
1 - T4 BO timers, no BO timer to capture a BO needs to be over 5 mins, perhaps scaling the secured timers down 10% to help increase the flow of fighting and less waiting, not always fighting over every BO but maintaining 1/2 contested BO's to create fights.
Spoiler:
- Reikland - quarry to manor is the longest i found at 3 mins 30 secs travel time from fight spot (BO) to fight spot (BO). So 10 secs to realise BO is burning, 3 mins 30 secs travel + 60 secs fighting (if you don't win fight after 60 secs you loose, seems fair) + 10 secs to cap = 4 mins 50 secs.
- CW shrine to bramble is 60 secs faster travel time so if its not difficult this BO capture timer could be reduced even further to balance fighting opportunities.
- ROR does a good job of flagging where wb leaders can find fights, BO flags, keep flags and even markers on map where fights are happening.
2 - T4 keeps - allow respawning in keep while inner door is under attack, but stop once inner door is down
Spoiler:
- currently guild/wb's will jump from walls, sally forth and create more fights kills when the outer is under attack, but not when inner is under attack and semi afk until door is down, as no-one wants to miss the funnel fight.
- if they can respawn while inner is under attack i would expect to see guild/wb's jumping from the walls with burst aoe damage and clever use of morales with teamwork to create more challenging fights and kills.
- Stop respawning once inner door is destroyed otherwise you would not take keeps and it would be very very messy.
3 - Place arrows on the maps where you can enter/exit pvp area
Spoiler:
- New players when the wc is camped by gankers/overwhelming numbers log off or x-realm as they often don't realise you can enter pvp areas and try find fairer fights by other ways than via the wc.
B - Scenario's (small-scale) suggestions, this is not an easy one but the only way i can think of improving vet and new players scenario experience
1 - If it is at all possible, create a mechanic where you sign up a role in a tick box/something (1/3 healer/tank/dps) when you queue for sc.
Spoiler:
- Firstly this makes people realise you need all 3 archtypes to have a better chance of having challenging fights and getting kills.
- Secondly use this to match teams so every scenario has at least 1 tank and 1 healer on both sides.
- And make this obvious so people know about it and play to it and use it to their advantage to for example level their tank quickly through t2-3 sc's.
- Put on the queue tick box UI page, "you need at least 1 of each archtype to create a scenario" lot of other games do this even with lower populations.
- Having at least 1 of each of these archtypes in every scenario will massively increase enjoyment and the ability to put up a fight in scenario's, especially at lower levels.
- Otherwise rotating scenarios is great, keeps it fresh, changes to EC/CW rewards is helpful, some classes are shining in scenario/small-scale which is great for people who mostly play scenario's, they have a feeling of being able to be better than others in scenario's due to having access and knowledge of superior small-scale abilities, AM/Shaman in small-scale > other healers.
C - Some other ideas that are not easy changes, but i feel worth mentioning:
1 - Reward good warband leaders/6 man leaders
Spoiler:
- Good regular warband leaders are the best thing for server population and pvp experience
- This can only work if automated as a system process, i don't know what is and isn''t flagged and logged in database, or what can be added/changed, but logic perhaps could be:
- IF character = flag wb leader AND time flag started - current time = <1 hour AND warband ID <number> (*) member count <12 AND warband ID <number> kill count = <20 THEN ACTION send mail to character "tradeable loot bag with 20 conq medals" and message of why good wb leader (conq could be dom for 6 man leaders)
(*) giving warbands and identity so that team stats can be tracked
- This is rewarding good wb leaders, not bad ones, because they get kills and keep members around, and it encourages people to try being wb leader and get good at it. No organised wb leaders = poor pvp experience.
- The reward is tradeable so they can hand out if they don't need and encourage people to follow them.
- Guilds help train new players, use voice coordiantion and have better organised teams which therefore get more kills out of challenging fights, and have a better rush pvp experience.
- Perhaps this can be done via giving sub 40 characters/new players bonus xp when they are in a guild, and the guild 1 gold for every level these characters gain?
3 - Classes - Update defunct abilities to be more useful in either large-scale or small-scale, again not a small one, but hope the Dev's can get excited about working on this game with these sort of possibilities available, rather than feel bashed because people complain on forums because humans don't like change until they forget about it 2 weeks later.
Spoiler:
- ROR is restricted to 6 man groups (even if its in a wb) you can only guard/buff/aoe heal your group of 6, there are 12 classes each side, if we had group size at 12, you could balance all 12 classes to be equally needed in large scale with each class having a unique essential team ability.
- As its only 6, what you can do is make 2/3 of each archtype, so melee dps, ranged dps, healer, tank, optimal in large scale, and 1/3 optimal in scenario, when i say optimal, i mean have an ability/tactic/morale that is essential in that environment, so aoe cleanse in large-scale, big ST damage in small-scale with own built in armor debuff/heal debuff.
- I would like to see each class have a large-scale spec and a small scale spec, i think this gives you options to test your character, but still maintain a specialist class for environments.
- Also i would enjoy seeing less classes the same, we don't all want to play heavy armor healers using shield/axe and magic, that's a solo game, we want to play huge damage BW/Sorc who dies so quickly, but with a very tanky tank class and big ranged healer can change a battlefield as a team.
4 - Leveling - make it quicker for new players
Spoiler:
- Standard battle rank leveling 1-40 needs to be quicker, yes veteran players can level in 1-3 days from 1-40, but no new players can, they haven't yet learnt all the tricks. For new players, its weeks and weeks, hours and hours, to get to T4, which is where this game really shines and has chance to make the new player/casual go wow i want more of that, gives them chance to get the unique ROR rush feeling from getting kills as a inter-dependent team from a challenging fight running in a pug alongside Phalanx, TUP, CNTK, Beavers, LMN(OR), LOB/fusion etc, then they look to join these teams "like you would join a sports team if you enjoy and are good at a sport" and learn to be part of that team and good, and get further rush pvp experiences from the game.
5 - GM/Dev Comms - This is tricky, firstly because who would want to spend thier time doing this, and because if i was a dev i would be thinking of projects to play with on the test server all day, then on an evening playing with building/testing them, when you tell people on forums about it, trolls/humans don't like change, no point.
So i can understand Dev's get excited about trying new stuff out in this game and wanting to see how it works in the live server, thats the only reason this is still here, but also setting expectations early creates less reactions when changes happen, so i like the threads on SH/WL well before anything happens, BG changes i thought went really well.
Spoiler:
- I do wonder if the forum is not always the best place to get quanlity feedback because of theorycraft fog/emotions/trolls.
- Maybe if someone has time, once a month/2 weeks do a 1 hour voice session on ROR discord to discuss an agenda, like BO timers, or "Engi/Magus class does it need a heal debuff?" or whatever a Dev is thinking of experimenting with next and wants some thoughts/idea's, could do a poll thread to find the topic for agenda, there are a lot of clever people with a lot of knowledge who in the right environment can add knowledge/idea's.
-I remember Aza did a voice session with an alliance moderated by a GM on voice and guild leaders too, we can all behave when a GM is around and both parties get a go, see 24 vs 24 events.
Again thank you for the great game and your personal time to make a lot of people laugh and have fun!
Last edited by Fractus on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bozzax wrote:
New testers (ex alts) very often lack the basic stuff like potions and tallies or basic ruin gear. The diff is real and any in conq/dom mix 60+ can pretty much kill them solo and feel good about them selves.
I'm saying making sure they are ok-ish equipped would enhance THEIR experience and make the 32-40/50 playtime more enjoyable.
The only reason to keep it is as is to make yours and my playing experience more enjoyable which I fear is less bene long term.
If it were up to me I'd boost ppl in the 32-40/40 range to a level where they even had a minimal edge on 40/40-50 toons.I know this goes against the view of those who needs to feel superior.
Those really new people who struggle for some reason should be pro-active and ask for help.
I think a lot players play less good, when you take experienced players standards, but they don't recognize it and just keep playing. They might lose more than they win but don't care.
Let's say you join a sc and die significantly more than other players in your team for various reasons, then you most likely do something wrong. The question is then, do you recognize, that something is wrong or do you just continue to play the way you do.
It doesn't matter what rank you have, when you lack this self-reflection. You will struggle all the time, maybe without even noticing it, because you have no motivation to change anything.
When experienced players have only little or no problems progressing sub40 in t4, then the lower rank or lower rr itself is not the core problem.
When you can farm half an hour to get potions for 20h playtime, then the time investment is not that big and still you are right that many people don't use them.
The advice chat ingame is often full of trolls but usually people get their answers. Same goes for the forums.
Nevertheless, the new player seeking for help has to make the first step, because it is not that bad for low ranks as people try to claim.
The question is how people play their class and how self-critical they are.
Yep lets just tell new testers that hit T4 for the first time to improve. Seems to be working like a charm.
all of these comments are looks like 'more easy end gear'.
maybe end gear has purpose to distinguish between main toon and alts.
I see a lot of lousy alt plays, including me.
should these alts have access to end gear instantly?
there should be minimum skill level to get end gear and that level is achieved by time investment.
I also think easy end gear have problem.
It push players to zerg play.
no pressure, so easy, don't care what's important, just join zerg.
blame zerg and xrealm if own zerg failed.
anni/merc had no problem to get with this play.
hope it's not sound like elitist.
long journey to conq gives chance to look your mistakes and to improve. = less noob alts.
I don't think anyone is advocating for easy gimme gear; we're discussing reasonable-ness and what we think could improve the RVR experience. I think casual players look at the sheer amount of medallions you need to obtain BiS gear and simply get burnt out. A lot of players in my guild (NA time) do not have one piece of conq gear yet. Some, like me, might have one or two. These are people who play regularly in group situations and have done so on a pretty casual basis for the last four months. These are not unorganized, unskilled players (but not hardcore Simtex-esque gods among men). Nonetheless, these are people who have pretty much resigned themselves to not worrying about conq gear and just having fun with their guildies (which we do, #WAD). But it would also be really nice if the gear didn't feel like a grind. As many have said, the fun in T3 came from building your gear over the course of 2-4 weeks and then taking the fight to the enemy. That's where the fun lies, and I don't necessarily think people would leave if that type of incentive program came back.
As an aside: I still hold the belief that the majority of players just want to be able to have fun as soon as they jump on. Currently it doesn't feel like that happens every time, but that's not necessarily tied uniquely to how BiS gear is obtained.
Bozzax wrote:
Yep lets just tell new testers that hit T4 for the first time to improve seems to be working like a charm.
We don't have to tell them anything apart from where they can find help.
They have to be willing to ask for help in the first place.
#50onlinePrimeTime
Low pop during US primetime sounds like a totally different topic.
During EU primetime there are enough players but you still hardly find people for a group. ^^
Last edited by Sulorie on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
