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Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

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Darosh
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Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#71 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:18 pm

Elemint wrote:The above articles and crom's post cemented my beliefs that DF was nothing more than a convenient tool misused which caused damage only when combined with server crossing because "You will never see these people again, so it doesn't matter"
Only read if you are really bored, have literally nothing else to do with your life:
Spoiler:
First of all, substitute the 'server-crossing' with a population in the 1000's, you'll create the very same perceived environment.
Secondly, the issues with the complete automation of LFG tools persist - without the initial social interaction that was required prior to the implementation, the scene for proper interaction cannot be set.
The categories of social interaction established in the first paper aren't unique to just that paper or games, but refer to principles established in the fields of psychology that apply to all aspects of life - the requirements for social interaction to flourish do not change, regardless of the environement at hand.

You could even go so far as to assess this topic from an even more general point of view: system theory.
If you consider a group to be a system in and of itself, it will - as does every system - strive to achieve homeostasis, if the initial set of conditions is universally abided by (directly or indirectly) - regardless of its nature or its implications for the individual elements of the system (e.g.: mute, toxic or pleasent first encounters) - and allows for homeostasis to be achieved, the system will ultimately maintain it. If the initial set of conditions doesn't satisfy the system, it will be rejected (as it comes to anything that involves humans: most of the time in the most meanest of ways).
If the starting up of a group requires actual social interaction, the conditions are set; have been universially 'agreed to' (before, not after the fact), and will be maintained up until to a certain point (= perturbation; e.g.: wipes, loot issues, yada yada) that requires the system to adjust itself.
If in the process of adjusting itself the system (= group; note: groups will most certainly always mutually agree to a certain approach, even if no one raises his opinion or makes an effort to address the issues at hand) deems it necessary, it'll either remove the elements that cause the perturbation, snap into - and maintain - a certain Modus Operandi or dissolve.
We all have been there at one point or another... the group wipes, people go mute, the group wipes again, people get riled up, the group wipes again, people single out each other for mistakes, the group wipes again, people are getting kicked or leave.
If the starting up of a group does not require actual social interaction the respective precedent is set and will be abided by - {Abbd.:} in this very case, a perturbation will be ever more likely to have the system dissolve, rather than simply adjust and recover.
Here, all of us have been there, too. The most cheerful person can join a group of mutists, drag on with his attempts for some time, but will in 9/10 of cases adjust accordingly - {Abbd.:} or an alternative scenario: Mute group wipes, mute group disbands either instantly or after a chain of emotional outbursts, that more often than not resemble the genesis of the most creative of insults.

Undoubtly, it is the extremes that stand out the most, as is with all things - and yes, there are many encounters in automated LFG systems that can turn out hilarious and pleasent, but these fully automated systems allow for these extremes to become the norm. There is hardly anyone that does NOT expect to just plow through a dungeon without being prompted to utter a single word, more importantly there is hardly anyone that still holds the expectation that he'll be greeted; that greeting each other, or other basic interactions will be performed ~ the tiniest of things are what make or break communities.
({Abbd.:} Apply the latter very bit to, for example, an apartment complex: If people greet each other, the atmosphere is generally more enjoyable on a very certain, primal level than it'd be without; the sense of communal and societal reliance [and respect] has a tremendous impact on mental health. One isn't required to completly bond with others - like one would expect in and from an actual relationship or friendship - to make a difference).

In other words, placing all players into a common pool and pushing said potentially 'socially incompatible' players into one group, which they'll cling to due to the established (read: carefully - tbh, masterfully - crafted) stance that every bit of time has to be "effectively" spent (and that anything that does not constitute "effective" play [i.e.: that doesn't help one to participate in the reckless and senseless competition that most games revolve around nowadays] <cannot> be deemed fun) - which will ultimately increase the emotional investment and the chances of outbursts and alike - will have the extremes, that have - prior to the implementation of an automated LFG system - been prevented or reduced in scale by natural means, become the rule.
Whereas, before they were the exception (even if just perceived, the struggle of finding a group at times - more often than not - alleviated the impact of longlasting impressions in regards to the entirety of the community, i.e.: these encounters created a 'common enemy' [e.g.: naturally Developers/Publishers were shout at for bugs, or the players that displayed bad manners], one that does NOT potentially lurk behind every corner [= every encounter]; the etiquette has been continuously upheld, social skills have been continuously maintained - if not only out of 'fear' of repercussions/consequences [e.g.: having yet again to invest time into finding a group on your own]; it kept people in check).

Even if abstract assessment is more often than not considered to be overkill or 'no more than fancy words', it yields answers for all questions - especially those masked by perception or neglected for whatever other reason. I.e.: There is a reason shrinks and their kin exist, for better or worse. {Abbd.:} I really hope I find the bloody paper >_<!

It might help to defuse the impression you might or might not have gotten after reading these and prior ramblings:
I am working in mental healthcare, hence I am kinda passionate about these kind of topics.
TLDR:
Yes, LFG "tools" are convenient - if properly implemented (= accounting for community development and the worst of human nature, e.g.: 'socially incompatible' players) they can aid in developing the community by offering a platform by which means the recruitment and introduction of new players - or community driven events for that matter - can be faciliated, and certain limitations; population or tech related, can be overcome.
However, if one does completly automate it, as was (still is, probably?) the case in WoW, things go south rather quickly. Especially if the introduction of it, or just about any new mechanic or game design related to the community (regardless of how objectively reasonable it might or might not be) completly overhauls - if not 'overrules' - the ways that were established over the course of years (here again, system theory serves) - as the fundamental ruleset of social interaction still applies.
Abbd.: In other words: LFG browser > LFG tool.

E: So many words to potentially spell wrong, so much to fix. >_<
Last edited by Darosh on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:47 am, edited 23 times in total.

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lilsabin
Posts: 619

Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#72 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:54 pm

tips in WAR loading screen (unless i am mistaken) : "if u had fun playing with someone , you can add them to your FRIEND list" ... in WoW LFG system : if you did a dungeon or even SC/BG with complete stranger but actualy had fun with them , you can still add them to your friend list EVEN IF THEY ARE FROM ANOTHER SERVER ( and still party with them , in the world , it ll just teleport you or them to the world) and you ll play toghether . People still socialise " A LOT" in wow , go to goldenshire , orgrimmar front door or even stormwind AH or front door . The DIFFERENCE between WAR and other MMOs , is that people have a choice , u can socialise/teamplay/guild-activity or be a loner/lfg-person/and anti social prick and still have fun . On the otherside , WAR ABSOLUTELY punish YOU for trying to be on your own for a while ...WICH DOESNT WORK , BECAUSE UNLESS U have social/psychologic ISSUES , everybody at some point just want to enjoy things on their own without having to always depend on other people...:)

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Darosh
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Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#73 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:28 am

The following constitutes offtopic at this point, I hope you don't mind.
Spoiler:
Some more papers for those interested, these are not the best ones I've read but still interesting nonetheless. They cover alot of aspects - two of the more important ones: addicition ( i.e: The thing that the industry makes it's money with in this genre. There is a reason modern MMOs cater to the seemingly socially inept/unwilling.) and how MMOs are 'being used' otherwise.

Note: These are mostly .pdfs, nothing malicious. Some of them are pretty heavy on the number crunching, but that should be expected.

Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. Meh. (...)

The paper I have in mind still didn't turn up, some of the best - read: thoroughly good, both in scourcing and the way the studies are conducted - papers aren't publicly accessible, and given the latter I am not keen on utilizing my access to them on a whim; others are only publicly accessible in their original langauge, but not in translated form. I'd toss in german papers aswell, but I doubt there are many on here that can read german or are even interested.
There are innumerable papers on the topic (if you search for them, you'll find them; this is just an incredible tiny sample), while some of them arguably lack depth - some are pretty shady and tend toward the "gender-study"-social science (Sidenote: Its terrifying how much garbage turned up, no wonder that the social sciences are regarded as absolute nonsense these days.), all things considered - and some of their findings differ, the conclusion is always the same, the social aspect is the what actually drives these games moreso than anything else ~ or rather should drive, its regressing at the moment and will continue to do so.

Having worked in rehab myself for quite some time and still tangentially being confronted with a variety cases, moreso the impact of today's shite industries' absolutely reckless deployment of psychological measures:
What the industry introduces as convenient tools and designs - and the very way they are being implemented and introduced - is no more than them playing players and catering towards the most vulnerable in an attempt to establish factual addiction; raising husks willing to throw money at them or their fellow gamers infront of busses to secure some pixels - among other things -, if need be.
It is not the good old-fashioned timesink, shinies, daily activities and fastpaced nonsense one has to worry about. This industry is alot more malicious than the obvious cashgrabbing would have you - naively - believe.
The implications, as I've stated earlier, in regards to new generations; children that go through adolescence now and from now on; society as a whole, are pretty worrisome.
Keep in mind its not just games, its basically each and every industry (e.g.: "social media" and youtube personality cults - don't get me started on that...) that contribute to this, with the media and today's means of communication exposing even the youngest to this mess - and arguably incompetent parents leaving all these impressions and attitudes uncontested...

Note:
I am not saying that manipulation didn't take place before the digitial age, it very well did - most certainly on a similar/greater scale -, but not in such perfidious ways ~ more importantly, it has not been as easily applicable.
Abbd.: Tangentially relevant in regards to the above:
Spoiler:
Consider what is going on (e.g.: the introduction of superfically convenient [= pruning] and "social" [pff] designs) in all things related to media, economy and society to be a push towards an artificial stake akin to solitary confinement (note: reading about that topic is both terryfing and absolutely amazing, I doubt there is any other set of circumstances in which the actual human nature and its dependencies/needs are on full display):
Humans ultimately depend on escapsim just as much as they depend on nourishment; on social interaction (= others) just as much as on themselves, to sustain themselves - physically and mentally.

The changes in personality and behaviour(al patterns); mental health in general, that come about in solitary confinement (and states akin to it) are most useful; profitable, and easy to utilize for economic gain.
It generally establishes a sense of submission and subordination (i.e.: the willingness to abide by 'orders', if need be to defend the 'superiors' and everything related to them [e.g.: fandom, personality cult, ideologies, societial workings in general, yada yada] {=tribalism}), for the sake of (subconsciously; note: I'll never unterstand why people neglect this instance of themselves so passionately) preventing to being further subjected to it.
{Abbd.:} Given that is ultimately artificial (and vile in nature), the impact on the environment this state is being enforced in results in what most people refer to as 'toxicity' nowadays - among other things.
Humans are vividly opposed to this state of being ~ primal and primordial mechanisms - algorithms if you will - that have been established and lastly become ingrained over the course of mankind's entire history (i.e.: due to necessities prompted by the respective environment at the respective time, yada yada) force everyone (i.e.: no one is exempt from this, you can feel as special and unique; snowflakey, as you wish, ultimately you abide by the same rules - resistance is not only futile, but literally harmful), one way or another, to engage in an - ever more seldom, out of conscious perspective (note: even absolute despicable behaviour is to be considered "appropriate", even if not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination, if the set of circumstances; the system, deems is part of it's sschtick ~ in other words, there is no factual dichotomy; everything can be deemed to be the very same expression of the very same needs [here again, system theory serves]) - appropriate manner.
{Abbd.:} Ambivalence is a hell of a drug. *cough*

The feeling of 'loneliness' (and general animosity) is - factually - on the rise, why do you think that is the case with people having access and opportunity to all kinds of communication? It most certainly is not a natural development.

TLDR: These sentences might come off as platitudes, but they ultimately hold true:
1. Environment dictates actions and perception. Whoever controls the former, controls the latter.
2. The unsuspecting mind is most susceptible to manipulation.
With the above flung at you, I'll go crawl back into the shadows - I am interested in what others have to say about WAR's demise.



E: Words and stuff.
Last edited by Darosh on Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:23 am, edited 34 times in total.

lilsabin
Posts: 619

Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#74 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:37 am

Spoiler:
bordel , lol , WAR qui devient un outils de therapie .On aura tout vu . Some people really need real life friend ...sur ce , bonne continuation . :)
You were warned, take some time off forums - Torque

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Darosh
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Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#75 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:48 am

lilsabin wrote:bordel , lol , WAR qui devient un outils de therapie .On aura tout vu . Some people really need real life friend ...sur ce , bonne continuation . :)
Spoiler:
Image

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Haojin
Posts: 1066

Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#76 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 am

epic nerd thread 10/10

AoR sucked in a chronological order because:

-They published an UNFINISHED game
-They designed the future of the game on UNFINISHED structure
-Billions of bugs, exploits at the beginnning.
-Performance issues at the beginning.
-WotLK
-Class balance issues
-Monotonous RvR design
-80+ Patch aka powercreep
-Lack of pugs due to monthly payment.
-Empty instances
-Rip
Guildmaster of Phalanx

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Bozzax
Posts: 2635

Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#77 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:23 am

AoR bombed since it wasn't worth the sub for the majority of ppl trying it.

"Quality of Game" or the "Gaming experience" of the average joe matters more then most like to acknowledge.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#78 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:56 am

This doesn't just pertain to WAR, but whenever you release a game and deem it the next 'WoW killer', it sorta sets yourself up to fail...

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/969 ... oW-killers
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Darosh
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Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#79 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:38 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:This doesn't just pertain to WAR, but whenever you release a game and deem it the next 'WoW killer', it sorta sets yourself up to fail...

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/969 ... oW-killers
Yup, you open yourself up for the terrible lovechild of tribalism and hype, to come about squashing your ambitions.

Dreadspectre
Posts: 217

Re: Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

Post#80 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:18 pm

From what I remember of live, what killed it for me:

Dead class trees
Gear grind became atrociously long towards the end, especially for new players
Faction balance on servers largely ignored
Stubborness to merge servers which would have saved the game(IMO, at least for a time).
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