[BG] Utility discussion

[Bozzax]

In a WB setting IBs +25% parry, +10% crit and +ini is massive for you front line Slayer especially when paired with +15% incoming heal and +5% crits.

[roadkillrobin]

BO brings much more utillity in a warband then Morale pump.

You got AoE snare. Boosting stats that Chosen can't like Weapomskill. Immunity timers. AP boost. Magic dmg reduction that stacks with resistance. And with Beastord set you even got acess to a pretty decent AoE Armor debuffing capabillity.
In small scale you also get acess to a tank that can dish out **** tons of damage while still having acess to good buffs and debuffs. Something peoplee seem to forget is that dmg is also utillity that tanks bring to the table.

The big one is the AoE snare tho. Thats something the class brings that Chosen can't do and is essential for good performance.

Even if you swapped the morale tactic with BG for outgoin healdebuff, I would still bring a BO over a BG.

[Marsares]

In a WB setting IBs +25% parry, +10% crit and +ini is massive for you front line Slayer especially when paired with +15% incoming heal and +5% crits.

Indeed, whilst the BG pales in comparison to Chosen and BO in regards to group utility, it also lags behind the IB in how it buffs its Dark Protector, thus making it even less viable in a WB.

I do agree with many though that just buffing the BG and IB isn't the way forward, Chosen/KOTBS stand out so much that they will need to be brought down somewhat as well in order to open up some different WB compositions. The BG needs to have Dark Protector buffs that are on par with an IB and some worthwhile group utility (and the IB needs similar group utility buffs), whilst the group utility of Chosen/KOTBS needs to be toned down somewhat.

[Bozzax]

I fear reducing chosen / kotbs damage reduction on group only would make aoe/rdps even stronger. With this in mind I'd much rather see BG tweaked a bit and SM given some more util in SnB.

[th3gatekeeper]

In a WB setting IBs +25% parry, +10% crit and +ini is massive for you front line Slayer especially when paired with +15% incoming heal and +5% crits.

Indeed, whilst the BG pales in comparison to Chosen and BO in regards to group utility, it also lags behind the IB in how it buffs its Dark Protector, thus making it even less viable in a WB.

I do agree with many though that just buffing the BG and IB isn't the way forward, Chosen/KOTBS stand out so much that they will need to be brought down somewhat as well in order to open up some different WB compositions. The BG needs to have Dark Protector buffs that are on par with an IB and some worthwhile group utility (and the IB needs similar group utility buffs), whilst the group utility of Chosen/KOTBS needs to be toned down somewhat.

The FIRST solution to this is very simple. Az even liked it and im not sure why it isnt done already. Make Super Punt a 2H only tactic. This will reduce SOME of the Knight/Chosen viability. It will minimally make morale pump and Super punt mutually exclusive. Which then creates an "opening" for BG to bring something unique (super punt).

That would be step 1.

Now, as to the group benefits... I dont know how viable this is, but IMO. I would love to see a system where a Chosen/Knight casts their auras (selects which 3 to use) however they dont actually DO anything until you use an ability in that tree - which triggers a 12 second "cast" of that aura.

So to give en example. A Chosen selectes the "standard" 3 Auras:
- Str (Dreadful Fear)
- Toughness (Corrupting Wrath)
- Resists (Discordant Instability)

However zero "buffs" have been applied.

Now, the Chosen runs into battle and right away uses Blast Wave. Upon activating Blast wave it "casts" Discordant Instability which causes the aura buff to be cast and last for 12 seconds.

The Chosen then finds an enemy and uses Suppression which "triggers" Dreadful Fear. He then uses Dizzying Blow, which "triggers" Corrupting Wrath.

So it requires active ability use to "trigger" those auras. So what you MAY see many Chosen do, is stack say 2 or 3 of the same tree to make it easier to use said benefits because you can "trigger" say 2 or 3 auras with 1 ability.

This wouldnt be a HUGE nerf, but it would mean auras are more difficult to be on 100% uptime and requires active management of Chosen abilities to "fire" - akin to playing a SM or BO whose buffs trigger off attacks.


As for the BG question.

Everyone has been tossing out all these ideas... At the end of the day, we need to be looking at:
1) Minimal changes that would make a difference in RVR Warbands
2) SIMPLE changes that would be easy to implement.

Swapping around the Mastery tree I think is SIMPLE. But will that actually solve anything?
I would LOVE to see a "first step" be to allow for the KD to trigger off Parry. This opens up 2H builds which bring CD as well. You can balance this by making it cost 25 Hate instead of 25 AP - which adds another hate drain for SnB.

I DO like the idea of "swapping" Mind Killer with Elite Training. This would give BG some inherent "guard damage mitigation" to the class regardless of spec but I would Make Mind Killer a SINGLE 75 stat debuff (rather than 25 stacking 3x) and in place of Choking Fury as the tier 1 ability to unlock (so that Soul Killer comes after).

I still dislike Shielding Anger as well as Anger Drives me... Both these combined with FoF is just stupid and merely selfish. This is where I think some "rework" could be done IMO.... Would it be horrible to have BGs tactic "Anger Drives Me" also give parry to the dark protector (to mimic IB's Oathbound?) So this would provide some added MDPS utility for "front lines"

IDK what to do about Shielding Anger... Maybe nerf it to 1-2% per 10 hate and make it tier 1?

I still really want to see CD's hate cost diminished slightly. Even from 30 down to 20 I think would be solid.

So something like:
- Spiteful Slam now costs 25 Hate but procs off block or parry.
- Mind Killer and Elite Training swapped.
- Anger Drives me now also gives your dark protector the benefits (?)
- Shielding Anger is now tier 1 but only gives 1% per 10 hate.
- Chosen/Knight's Super Punt tactic now requires a 2H.

Something like that maybe to start and reevaluate?

[anarchypark]

you know all these buff/debuff are second job for tanks, right?
taking damage at frontline and providing wall to backline is their first job.
also distracting, blocking view, chasing off ranges etc, that all come from survivability of tank.
and BG is one of best survivalist, even with 2h.

maybe, BG were designed as selfish, having least grp util in destro tank archetype, like SM in order.
high population of chosen, BO is also factor that WB look for them first.
that doesn't mean BG sux

[Karast]

In a WB setting IBs +25% parry, +10% crit and +ini is massive for you front line Slayer especially when paired with +15% incoming heal and +5% crits.

That is not a standard build and it is an issue keeping the grudge up unless if you're knee deep in the ****. Without high renown you are not going to be able to get everything. I run them but it is a heavy grudge cost and when you need those buffs the most is the start of the fight.

[Bozzax]

In a WB setting IBs +25% parry, +10% crit and +ini is massive for you front line Slayer especially when paired with +15% incoming heal and +5% crits.

That is not a standard build and it is an issue keeping the grudge up unless if you're knee deep in the ****. Without high renown you are not going to be able to get everything. I run them but it is a heavy grudge cost and when you need those buffs the most is the start of the fight.

True but 2-3 Slayer that ramp/sl/id through des lines is ... game over

[Karast]

In a WB setting IBs +25% parry, +10% crit and +ini is massive for you front line Slayer especially when paired with +15% incoming heal and +5% crits.

That is not a standard build and it is an issue keeping the grudge up unless if you're knee deep in the ****. Without high renown you are not going to be able to get everything. I run them but it is a heavy grudge cost and when you need those buffs the most is the start of the fight.

True but 2-3 Slayer that ramps through des lines = win

Also keep in mind with the ini on the parry buff that it doesn't stack. To be honest I have found that watch and learn + told you so is much more useful for AP management on RPs / AMs. It lets them go a lot harder on healing. If you run with a RP that AP is golden and their runes cover the ini. Just as a zealots does on destro side.

People also overlook runic shield which is massive. Full tree its 960 and you get the grudge back. In warband fights you should pop it every 10s. It does a lot more with all the sorc's around.

So if you go deep brotherhood you have to give up either crit or parry, and either way grudge is going to be hard to maintain without giving up a tactic or if you are getting hammered. In a lot of more kitey fights which are common now, you struggle for grudge without rising anger.

[Karast]

BO brings much more utillity in a warband then Morale pump.

You got AoE snare. Boosting stats that Chosen can't like Weapomskill. Immunity timers. AP boost. Magic dmg reduction that stacks with resistance. And with Beastord set you even got acess to a pretty decent AoE Armor debuffing capabillity.
In small scale you also get acess to a tank that can dish out **** tons of damage while still having acess to good buffs and debuffs. Something peoplee seem to forget is that dmg is also utillity that tanks bring to the table.

The big one is the AoE snare tho. Thats something the class brings that Chosen can't do and is essential for good performance.

Even if you swapped the morale tactic with BG for outgoin healdebuff, I would still bring a BO over a BG.

But would you bring a BO over a second Chosen for double auras? That's a harder choice if they didn't have pump.