Why you nerfed shaman?

[bloodi]

The difference is that Marauders can easily be countered.

I didnt read them yet and i can already tell for sure that both you counters only work in your imaginary world where the ab ex changes nerfed shamans and made them unplayable.

1: Stacking disrupt for Terrible Embrace, healers tend to get loads of Disrupt due to willpower main stat aswell.

Great now we are stacking disrupt for a single skill, while gimping ourselves to everythign else mara has,thats one hell of acounter robin, tell us more of this advanced stuff.

Because spending rr points is a counter, being able to outright kill the pet while it comes close and not needing to spend any points is however, really op by the WL, how dare he be so cheezy.

2: RP speccing for MRoF and Swift Runes can just tear all the Mara debuffs off as fast as you aply them. (works really good against sorcs to btw).

This is great stuff, so now we have to have a dedicated RP spamming cleanse on a target because somehow, thanks to the marvels of "i made up this **** and it doesnt really work at all" the battle is a marauder alone, without anyone assisting, everyone knows destruction doesnt have a group system, thats for order only.

This target is not being damaged at all by the 2 tanks and the other dps, no one is using debuffs on him to cover the marauder, its not like BO is ailment based too and can cover everything or chosen can just use things like seeping wound that has no cd, has less ap cost than the cleanse and covers it too.

Is easily counterable guys if you look at warbuilder and read the skills everything works wonders, i promise, easy counter. Works against sorcs too because of the reason above that actually not work at all in a normal encounter.

[porkstar]

Spoiler:

The difference is that Marauders can easily be countered.

I didnt read them yet and i can already tell for sure that both you counters only work in your imaginary world where the ab ex changes nerfed shamans and made them unplayable.

1: Stacking disrupt for Terrible Embrace, healers tend to get loads of Disrupt due to willpower main stat aswell.

Great now we are stacking disrupt for a single skill, while gimping ourselves to everythign else mara has,thats one hell of acounter robin, tell us more of this advanced stuff.

Because spending rr points is a counter, being able to outright kill the pet while it comes close and not needing to spend any points is however, really op by the WL, how dare he be so cheezy.

2: RP speccing for MRoF and Swift Runes can just tear all the Mara debuffs off as fast as you aply them. (works really good against sorcs to btw).

This is great stuff, so now we have to have a dedicated RP spamming cleanse on a target because somehow, thanks to the marvels of "i made up this **** and it doesnt really work at all" the battle is a marauder alone, without anyone assisting, everyone knows destruction doesnt have a group system, thats for order only.

This target is not being damaged at all by the 2 tanks and the other dps, no one is using debuffs on him to cover the marauder, its not like BO is ailment based too and can cover everything or chosen can just use things like seeping wound that has no cd, has less ap cost than the cleanse and covers it too.

Is easily counterable guys if you look at warbuilder and read the skills everything works wonders, i promise, easy counter. Works against sorcs too because of the reason above that actually not work at all in a normal encounter.

A dedicated cleansing RP totally works wonders btw. I spent last night spamming cleanse in SCs just for kicks...BEAST MODE! If you ever want to see a sorc and SH weep, hide in a bush and spam cleanse on the target they're focusing. Also, you want that premade to think they are waaaay better than they are? Spam cleanse on their primary DPS. Anyway, I need to stop commenting on threads out of sheer boredom.

[roadkillrobin]

I used examples of situations that completly counters the class.

Why is that a problem? Every class should have a counter/weakness. The answer to 3 second range knockdown balancing is not to give one class that has already exceptional kiting tools another tool. The answer is to change range knockdowns (which exist on both factions).

Using nerfs to ballance something that isn't really completly busted in the first place is a great recepie for pissing people off that allready spent **** ton of time on a character wich is resaulting in people leaving. Buffing a weakness or adding counter plays however makes people excited about the change. Here's a video demonstrating why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY&t=443s

[bloodi]

A dedicated cleansing RP totally works wonders btw. I spent last night spamming cleanse in SCs just for kicks...BEAST MODE! If you ever want to see a sorc and SH weep, hide in a bush and spam cleanse on the target they're focusing. Also, you want that premade to think they are waaaay better than they are? Spam cleanse on their primary DPS. Anyway, I need to stop commenting on threads out of sheer boredom.

Anecdotal evidence is cool but there really isnt a way around the fact that a group can easily make your cleaning rp irrelevant and in most cases, doing that will make you perform worse than just healing, there reasons why i already said them, other classes can cover up for you, more than a rp will ever be able to cleanse while also doing damage to that target, who will need to be healed by not just one healer since its probably under a heal debuff.

Is a cool gimmick, is not a counter, in any way shape or form.

Buffing a weakness or adding counter plays however makes people excited about the change. Here's a video demonstrating why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY&t=443s

If you are going to link a video, link it from the start, so people can see the explanation of why power creep is equally as bad, he shows it showing SF2 Rainbow Edition silliness, which makes a great point.

Also, its a video to talk about the s2 SFV balance changes, asking to please, just give us more stuff to do, as SFV in the current state, is quite bland for people who played FGS for a long time.

We will see if they heard us in the march update, everthing points to that they didnt at all seeing Kolin release.

[porkstar]

A dedicated cleansing RP totally works wonders btw. I spent last night spamming cleanse in SCs just for kicks...BEAST MODE! If you ever want to see a sorc and SH weep, hide in a bush and spam cleanse on the target they're focusing. Also, you want that premade to think they are waaaay better than they are? Spam cleanse on their primary DPS. Anyway, I need to stop commenting on threads out of sheer boredom.

Anecdotal evidence is cool but there really isnt a way around the fact that a group can easily make your cleaning rp irrelevant and in most cases, doing that will make you perform worse than just healing, there reasons why i already said them, other classes can cover up for you, more than a rp will ever be able to cleanse while also doing damage to that target, who will need to be healed by not just one healer since its probably under a heal debuff.

Is a cool gimmick, is not a counter, in any way shape or form.

I have to /ignore this thread from now on but anyway, cleanse ya later!!

[Luth]

Spoiler:

I used examples of situations that completly counters the class.

Why is that a problem? Every class should have a counter/weakness. The answer to 3 second range knockdown balancing is not to give one class that has already exceptional kiting tools another tool. The answer is to change range knockdowns (which exist on both factions).

Using nerfs to ballance something that isn't really completly busted in the first place is a great recepie for pissing people off that allready spent **** ton of time on a character wich is resaulting in people leaving. Buffing a weakness or adding counter plays however makes people excited about the change. Here's a video demonstrating why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY&t=443s

Ok.
Which tool "A" do you want to give to every class of a faction to counter broken class/archetype ability "B", which high likely exists only on one/a few class(es) of the other faction and how do you avoid any unforeseen consequences (i.e. new imbalances) that could arise when, for instance, tool "A" is used in interaction with class/archetype ability "C"?

Wouldn't it instead be better to adjust ability "B" directly to avoid any unforeseen consequences or at least reduce them to a minimum?

About the video: It's an opinion of someone on the internet, nothing more. It doesn't prove that what the person wants will work for every situation.
E.g.: If we follow his advice that the poor individual shouldn't be discouraged by "loss aversion", we would have a hyperinflation in no time. "Safe spaces" don't work on the long term; they delay problems and possibly cause even more/bigger problems in the future.

[gebajger]

not to hijack the thread but since we are talking about marauders....

M1 root that doesnt brake on dmg is simply stupid for a number of reasons.
no other root sticks while the person is taking dmg.
65ft range on a melee class (dont give me the stay out of 65ft crap, its impossible, i can explain why if you want me to)
the class has more than enough tools to catch kiters

about the pull

again, 65ft range and quite often bugs so that you get pulled thru rocks, trees , obstackles
not only that, but because of the 'flight time' you will land already knocked down or disabled , all they have to do is spam it, so once youre in range it fires
risk : zero
reward : guaranteed kill
skill level required : being able to press a button.

im talking about grp fights here, not 1v1.

you have a guard? screw you i pull
you can kite? screw you i pull

'pro' premades running around pulling ppl 1 by 1 in the middle of the melee train...fantastic
rant over

ps : im talking about pull in general on both sides (however the wl version at least can be countered by killing, snaring etc the pet)

[tionblack]

You know what I think of when I see multiple movespeed procs going off at the same time? Speedhackers. That and babies filled to the brim with cancer tumors, but mostly speedhackers. That's what everyone else sees too. That's the kind of thing that GM's have reports slamming their mailboxes over all the time. Have some self-awareness, Shams and Squig Herders moving around at 80% speed in combat is awful. I hope it stays that way, and I regularly play both a Sham and a SH in T4.

If you need some tips for surviving WL burst, I'm sure some helpful gobbo-bros would be glad to provide them.

AMEN!

[Valfaros]

not to hijack the thread but since we are talking about marauders....

M1 root that doesnt brake on dmg is simply stupid for a number of reasons.
no other root sticks while the person is taking dmg.
65ft range on a melee class (dont give me the stay out of 65ft crap, its impossible, i can explain why if you want me to)
the class has more than enough tools to catch kiters

about the pull

again, 65ft range and quite often bugs so that you get pulled thru rocks, trees , obstackles
not only that, but because of the 'flight time' you will land already knocked down or disabled , all they have to do is spam it, so once youre in range it fires
risk : zero
reward : guaranteed kill
skill level required : being able to press a button.

im talking about grp fights here, not 1v1.

you have a guard? screw you i pull
you can kite? screw you i pull

'pro' premades running around pulling ppl 1 by 1 in the middle of the melee train...fantastic
rant over

ps : im talking about pull in general on both sides (however the wl version at least can be countered by killing, snaring etc the pet)

Well it's not like you can't snare marauder. You'd have a point on live but not with the WL pets on this server they move as fast as a lightning but won't get stopped by anything (aka can move through everything and teleport their way up...)
+Marauders pull is disruptable which makes it way less effective against most range standing classes while the WL pull is only affected by parrie which guess what ranger don't have much. Not to mention the usefulness of a second cc in close combat here on ror if you know what I mean. Aka pulling someone while already standing close to him so you can cc him longer therefore dmg him longer which is also ror only thing. While it was possible to cast on live it isn't possible here on ror these stupid cc's even interrupt you while running fm which makes it even more stupid.

+Not sure who did it but comparing rKd on destro vs rKd on order always makes me giggle.

Honestly the best thing about this change is that I hopefully won't here the argument "well shamans have the run tactic" ever again. Still if you intentionally change any mechanic (or how any of the skills work) it would be nice to actually tell us and not wait till someone writes a bug report just hear "well we want it like this." You should esp. watch for this when changing something which only effects one side which this one right here does (atleast for now). Same thing happend on bugtracker when discussing FM or casting while airborne.

[gebajger]

stacking disrupt just for 1 ability is nonsense, i hope we agree.