Changelog 06/12/2016

[Morf]

I agree with a lot of things you said . If we are talking for a one vs one (Mara/chopa/squig) a dad engi can win easily (not sure for squig now range from nerfed) . But on rvr wb or sc , aoe dmg of a def engineer is insignifiant for any good healer . I think this patch is good for many reasons : sniper got nerfed (10sec Cd) and many players asked for this .
Half-def grenadier lose the +40 % range they had with bombardment turret before so they have to move midrange .
Tinkerer got that's true a great dodge disrupt buff but they have now to be closer than ever to the enemy due to range debuff . To be more explicit : every destro that will stay more than 40 feets away from a tinkerer won't get any damage . It's easy then for any mdps to get out def engineer range or for any caster to stay far away from def engineer

Yea this patch is good in general, i have said plenty of times in the past that each turret should provide a buff to its desired play style, what im disagreeing with is the dodge/disrupt bonus, as i have said the weakness to def engi is magic damage, now they have no weakness at all.
By all means give def/tinker engi a nice def buff to fit that play style but to give them a buff to counter magic damage seems wrong when thats there only weakness.

[Morf]

Any engineer that specs that tanky will not be a threat outside of solo roaming/1v1. At best, they'll be an annoyance (increased cast times, staggers, hard to kill) but they won't be putting out serious damage. It's a lol/solo spec.

The tinker spec/def spec isnt about doing mass damage, its exactly as u listed being an annoyance and also aoe healing,aoe ap and using pull and CC to protect ppl.
Remember pippu anyone, he won fights on his own not by being a dps engi but by being def and an annoyance.

This game is not and never will be balanced 1v1. You need to look at it from a group perspective.

An engi speccing tinkerer, stacking defensive stats and using flame turret basically turn into a support/CC class while soaking up damage and holding up a position. They suck if they have to move and their damage will NEVER be anything else than a little extra added pressure on the frontlines (especially considering the range nerf, RDPS can't easily hit them but the Engi can't hit them at all). This is in no way similar to what a tank provides, since they are mobile utility/defense batteries. Funnily enough, comparing them you should have realised that an easy counter to an entrenched engie post patch is a tank. HTL, KD, punt away from the turret and focus fire down is an easy way to deal with them.

This only opens up new and exciting ways to play the career, it doesn't add on top of the existing buffs to make the career OP. Iif anything such behaviour is now prevented with how exclusive turrets are. Not saying the numbers don't need to be tested and tweaked, simply stating that the concept is sound.

I agree the concept is sound, just not how its delivered, sorry but the possibility of any class having 80% dodge/disrupt while being able to aoe heal and having the mitigation of phsyical damage the same as a tank isnt right.

[Penril]

I agree the concept is sound, just not how its delivered, sorry but the possibility of any class having 80% dodge/disrupt while being able to aoe heal and having the mitigation of phsyical damage the same as a tank isnt right.

You know Maras can run with around 55% disrupt (make it 70% if ONE tank holds the line, 100% if there are 3 which shoudn't be a problem in RvR) and slot armor talismans too? Sure, they won't have the armor buff/tactic from engies, but they can become immune to Armor penetration with monstro procs. And they are way deadlier than engies in this spec since they keep:

a) Armor debuff (same value as a glass-cannon spec'd mara)
b) Wounds debuff (same as above)
c) Heal debuff (same as above)
d) ST pull
e) 100ft ranged KD with a 10s CD (which can't be dodged or disrupted), which will proc all the time thanks to that 55%-70% disrupt
f) FoF ranged root

However Engies get a +disrupt/dodge turret (which reduces their range drastically) and apparently the class is broken now? Nah.

[Skullgrin]

Depends on the class, if they have static toughness buffs and such.
My blorc which i consider to be well geared has full ruin and tough talis slotted, without login to be 100% accurate im sitting at around 650 toughness with 3.4k armor, very very similar to a def engi, ofc a tank brings more than just a def meat shield but thats not the point, point is a 48% dodge/disrupt boost is madness when a well played engi (especially def engi) weakness is magic damage, physical/melee damage is laughed at when you have a keg and def spec, i know this because i have played an engi like this, killing well geared sh's and finishing the fight with 90% hp, tanking and killing choppas and maraders with ease, sometimes even 2 at a time if done right, the threat is sorcs and magus as you cant mitigate the same sort of damage from resists as you can with armor.
Damage bonus isnt the issue, my def spec engi was sitting on tank level damage bonus, 200 odd bs and less ws but when you can put 6 dots on a target they will die, even more so as engi has alot of aoe damage, fluff damage sure but every little counts.

It seems to me that what is making the Def spec'ed engineer OP is the healing received by the keg. There are a few things that could mitigate this - 1) Make the keg attackable. 2) Nerf the ammount of healing that the keg does. 3) Buff the destro mirror to the keg, the Chosen aura Corrupting Retribution, so that it heals a comparable amount.

[blaqwar]

If dealing with a CC/Support career is too easy they aren't worth playing. If a tank can't live long enough to benefit his team with guard/CC/HTL then he won't be given a spot. That's why you see plenty of defensive tanks running around, it's not that they don't do decent damage when specced for it, it's that their unique tanking role requires survivability. And that's what Engi have been given. If they die before they can magnet, keg and provide some AP regen and debuff the enemy they are useless, as their damage is easily ignored in a group setting.

And a point about the oh-so-hated Keg. It doesn't scale with anything relevant except mastery points. It will only get worse as time goes on and while it's a nuisance at the moment it will be completely irrelevant in a few months.

And if you manage to find an Engi successfuly stacking Willpower then I guess we have a problem on our hands.

Edit: I had a thought; if keg healing is an issue right now and if it's healing too much for a support/CC career (Tinkerer Engi), perhaps the healing could be reduced and made to scale. This way it won't be too potent right now at this gear level yet remain decent at higher gear levels.

Perhaps very low BS scaling would be fine since Tinkerer's won't stack BS due to survivability issues yet the higher level gear should lead to a minimal BS increase regardless. Riflemen in general won't spend that many points in the tree and if the BS scaling is low the return won't be worth it (avoiding the issue of Engi's sniping things from afar and healing any damage they are dealt by stacking BS and healing with the keg).

Apologies if this is the wrong thread to post this in, it was just a thought someone could develop and post in the balance forums.

[Telen]

If you take the defence buff just at renown cost. It would be worth about 45 renown points. You hugely sacrifice range and it takes a while for those stacks to build. Compare that to what the bw/sorc mechanic gives them. The crit bonus alone is the equivalent to 150 renown points and the demon doesnt provide the same level of damage boost. It doesnt seem overpowered in the scheme of things to me when you weigh up what the bonus would cost to spec it. The only issue and will remain until the devs have client control is limiting range to 150.

[Penril]

Edit: I had a thought; if keg healing is an issue right now and if it's healing too much for a support/CC career (Tinkerer Engi), perhaps the healing could be reduced and made to scale. This way it won't be too potent right now at this gear level yet remain decent at higher gear levels.

Keg healing isn't a problem, except for pugs or solo/1v1 play. Therefore, there is nothing to discuss about it tbh...

[Grunbag]

Depends on the class, if they have static toughness buffs and such.
My blorc which i consider to be well geared has full ruin and tough talis slotted, without login to be 100% accurate im sitting at around 650 toughness with 3.4k armor, very very similar to a def engi, ofc a tank brings more than just a def meat shield but thats not the point, point is a 48% dodge/disrupt boost is madness when a well played engi (especially def engi) weakness is magic damage, physical/melee damage is laughed at when you have a keg and def spec, i know this because i have played an engi like this, killing well geared sh's and finishing the fight with 90% hp, tanking and killing choppas and maraders with ease, sometimes even 2 at a time if done right, the threat is sorcs and magus as you cant mitigate the same sort of damage from resists as you can with armor.
Damage bonus isnt the issue, my def spec engi was sitting on tank level damage bonus, 200 odd bs and less ws but when you can put 6 dots on a target they will die, even more so as engi has alot of aoe damage, fluff damage sure but every little counts.

It seems to me that what is making the Def spec'ed engineer OP is the healing received by the keg. There are a few things that could mitigate this - 1) Make the keg attackable. 2) Nerf the ammount of healing that the keg does. 3) Buff the destro mirror to the keg, the Chosen aura Corrupting Retribution, so that it heals a comparable amount.

1) the keg is not a part of the patch it's always been ingame and no one before care about it , first sniper was op and now sniper got nerfed you said that keg is op ? What's next ? we were asking what makes def engineer op since new patch ?
2) the kegs gives 300 heals every 2 seconds which is not enough to cover a Magus aoe .
Before patch I had 30% dodge disrupt and none said I was op ?
What would you give instead of dodge disrupt for buffing flame turret ?

[porkstar]

I agree with a lot of things you said . If we are talking for a one vs one (Mara/chopa/squig) a dad engi can win easily (not sure for squig now range from nerfed) . But on rvr wb or sc , aoe dmg of a def engineer is insignifiant for any good healer . I think this patch is good for many reasons : sniper got nerfed (10sec Cd) and many players asked for this .
Half-def grenadier lose the +40 % range they had with bombardment turret before so they have to move midrange .
Tinkerer got that's true a great dodge disrupt buff but they have now to be closer than ever to the enemy due to range debuff . To be more explicit : every destro that will stay more than 40 feets away from a tinkerer won't get any damage . It's easy then for any mdps to get out def engineer range or for any caster to stay far away from def engineer

Yea this patch is good in general, i have said plenty of times in the past that each turret should provide a buff to its desired play style, what im disagreeing with is the dodge/disrupt bonus, as i have said the weakness to def engi is magic damage, now they have no weakness at all.
By all means give def/tinker engi a nice def buff to fit that play style but to give them a buff to counter magic damage seems wrong when thats there only weakness.

I feel like pierce defenses is a very underrated SH tactic. Not that this levels the playing field for a super disrupt engie and all the WTF SMs but its somewhat of a counter play. The problem I see with this mirrored Flamer buff, the engie benefits to a greater extent with the armor tactic and keg.

[knezekj]

good job