Return of Reckoning

Azarael wrote:

Spoiler:

Reesh wrote:We're currently getting into the situation when being the zergiest is the new meta. Pugs in the time being got into merc/anni gear, so they're no longer as easy to kill.

Organized warbands basically counts in my eyes as two pug ones in spot on the battlefield. That's why one organized + pugs are a hard force to be dealt with. X realming is making the problem bigger, but well, we can't deal with it currently.
First off, before I'll go into my thought, let me say that I approve one thing - with increased AAO, increase the aoe hit caps.

Since Aza got really good in terms of: If x number of players are close to each other on the x diameter of feet - that will happen.
Implementing some or all of those changes will lengthen the combat, making it more enjoyable, more tactical. No more of situations that you're getting wiped in 5 seconds, just because enemy warband is too close and they sneezed on you.

Here are some crazy ideas. Those below will all work together with themselfs, making combinations of some pretty hard debuffing. It will also affect morals.
Reasoning behind all of this? I'm taking from Middle Ages fights, what body blocking inflicted upon effective combat and target choosing. Pretty often in those zergy battles, there were friendly fire casualties and other terrifying stuff as I could say.

Lets start:
color=#BF0000]1.[/color] Decrease the AoE hit cap upon the number of friendly players around. Pretty straightforward why.
Example:
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 6 targets;
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 4 targets;
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 2 targets;
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 1 target, 50% of a chance that attack will fail.

2. Decrease the AoEe and ST dmg upon the number of friendly players around. Why I'm proposing decrease of ST damage altogether with AoE - because that would encourage hard melee trains that would still require no additional thinking or tactics.
Example:
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 10%; decrease the ST damage by 20%
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 30%; decrease the ST damage by 45%
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 60%; decrease the ST damage by 70%
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 90%; decrease the ST damage by 95%

3. Implement self damaging ability while using skills. That would simulate the friendly fire effect in a large crowd. It would be similar to BWs and Sorcs drawback mechanic.
Example:
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 300 unmitigable damage, with 10% chance; also, 5% chance to deal 150 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 10ft away from you
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 600 unmitigable damage, with 20% chance; also, 10% chance to deal 300 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 15ft away from you
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 900 unmitigable damage, with 30% chance; also, 20% chance to deal 600 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 20ft away from you
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 1200 unmitigable damage, with 50% chance; also, 35% chance to deal 900 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 30ft away from you

4. When there are above of 50+ friendly players in the circle of diameter of 60ft, ressurect abilities are disabled. Reasoning? Too many fighters, even the skillest healer have a trouble of finding your corpse under their feet.

5. Global snaring effect. Reasoning? Huge force runs as fast as the slowest one in the 1st line, unless they are on horses. That would stop the zerg stampede, and they would be easily predictable. Snaring check will occur every 5 seconds. Mount up time increased by 3s.
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 10%; outside of combat by 5%
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 20%; outside of combat by 8%
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 40%; outside of combat by 11%
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 60%; outside of combat by 15%

In summary, when the case of 72 players close to each other will occur we can get this cute combo:
-You can hit only 1 player at a time with AoE skill, with 50% of a chance of failure.
-Your AoE damage is decreased by 90%, ST by 95%.
-Upon skill activation, You have a chance of hurting yourself with 1200 unmitigable damage, with 50% chance; also, 35% chance to deal 900 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 30ft away from you.
-You can not be ressed.
-You have a 60% snare on you.


Seems crazy? Maybe. But the mindless zerg had no successes against highly trained armies.

Now, the cherry on a cake:
This debuffs are pretty hurtful and make your combat capabilities almost as equal to zero.
What can you do, to change this:

6. Implementing the RvR tactical boost mechanic.
What it will do, is making a new global skill tied only to RvR. Probably without client control it cannot be added, as a completly new one... But maybe to modify another which isn't used?
Only, and only the warband leader will be able to use it and it will work upon all warband members.
What it will do - for the certain amount of time, after activating it, your warband will be immune to all of those debuffs mentioned above. It will allow heroic charges, and also, it will be a reward to those who are actually doing the most in the RvR zone. The amount of time it will last shall be appropriate to the mechanic gathered.
-25 mechanic points - 5 seconds.
-50 mechanic points - 15 seconds.
-75 mechanic points - 20 seconds.
-100 mechanic points - 30 seconds. The damage and healing power of your warband is increased by 20%.

Cooldown of this skill is 5 minutes.

Whenever all of the players in a warband (Yes, all) are involved in taking an a BO, they will earn 12 mechanic points. Successful BO capture will reward them with 13 points.
Whenever enemy will take one of your friendly BOs, You will loose 25 points, but, your warband will recieve 25 of them back when point has been successfully assaulted by a wb.
Assault and retake two BOs in a row, without loosing one, and your warband will recieve 25 points extra, making it a total of 75.
If your warband will participate in securing every BO in a zone, it will have a 7 minute immunity to loosing mechanic points.

As an example, even if the enemy will take BO from you, for 7 minutes your mechanic points will remain the same, which will allow you to use the boost skill for some tactical push.

So... Just a few thoughts of mine. Flame on this, discuss, or just have a good laugh while reading this, I don't care.

What's most important, that upon reading this you might get even better ideas, how to change the RvR positively. Cheers!

Either your timing is absolutely impeccable or you saw my comments about wanting to rework AoE. Either way, I'm happy you posted.

I would have done it this way (because of performance restrictions, some of your ideas are impossible:)

1) No AoE cap, it's gone.
2) Base damage of all AoE attacks drops by 50%.
3) The range of cleave-type PBAoEs increases to ~45-50 feet.
4) AoE attacks increase in damage as more enemy targets are struck, hitting their previous level of 100% after 9 targets, and going up to a suitable maximum when hitting tons of targets.
5) AoE attacks reduce in damage as more friendly targets are struck. The reduction is additive with the increase in 4).

So, let's go through the core of this:

I am sick to the back teeth of bastard chuffing zerg. No, really. I've had enough.

AoE caps of any kind favour the zerg and should not be implemented in any game. The correct answer is to implement an AoE system which increases in effectiveness when employed by smaller formations or diffuse/surrounding formations relative to large blob formations. Only by doing this, using the game's base combat system, will you force an engagement to spread out.

"But Aza, that will favour bomb warbands! Age of Bright Wizards!"

Nope. A capped AoE system is what favours bomb warbands because it shields their inner members from AoEs which should be devastating them. With no AoE cap, and a bonus for hitting many players with AoE, and a penalty for hitting friendly targets which is significantly more potent when few enemies are hit, the blob / zerg loses its ball defense and takes vastly more damage than it deals when facing a smaller or surrounding force using actual tactics against it, just as it should be. The friendly fire penalty is effective against the zerg because of its ball nature - players in the middle and back of it will AoE through other players.

And the counterplay against AoE? Very simple. Split the hell up. Nothing more, nothing less. 9 player formations notice no change, and anything smaller takes less damage than now. This zerg bullshit is going to go on forever unless we strike in a way that makes deathballing a complete losing strategy.

An excellent side effect of this is that it knocks the Slayer skill Inevitable Doom right out of small scale, because a melee train using ID will have its damage ruined by their very presence.

Azarael wrote:

Reesh wrote:We're currently getting into the situation when being the zergiest is the new meta. Pugs in the time being got into merc/anni gear, so they're no longer as easy to kill.

Organized warbands basically counts in my eyes as two pug ones in spot on the battlefield. That's why one organized + pugs are a hard force to be dealt with. X realming is making the problem bigger, but well, we can't deal with it currently.
First off, before I'll go into my thought, let me say that I approve one thing - with increased AAO, increase the aoe hit caps.

Since Aza got really good in terms of: If x number of players are close to each other on the x diameter of feet - that will happen.
Implementing some or all of those changes will lengthen the combat, making it more enjoyable, more tactical. No more of situations that you're getting wiped in 5 seconds, just because enemy warband is too close and they sneezed on you.

Here are some crazy ideas. Those below will all work together with themselfs, making combinations of some pretty hard debuffing. It will also affect morals.
Reasoning behind all of this? I'm taking from Middle Ages fights, what body blocking inflicted upon effective combat and target choosing. Pretty often in those zergy battles, there were friendly fire casualties and other terrifying stuff as I could say.

Lets start:

Spoiler:

1. Decrease the AoE hit cap upon the number of friendly players around. Pretty straightforward why.
Example:
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 6 targets;
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 4 targets;
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 2 targets;
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE hit cap to 1 target, 50% of a chance that attack will fail.

2. Decrease the AoEe and ST dmg upon the number of friendly players around. Why I'm proposing decrease of ST damage altogether with AoE - because that would encourage hard melee trains that would still require no additional thinking or tactics.
Example:
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 10%; decrease the ST damage by 20%
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 30%; decrease the ST damage by 45%
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 60%; decrease the ST damage by 70%
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the AoE damage by 90%; decrease the ST damage by 95%

3. Implement self damaging ability while using skills. That would simulate the friendly fire effect in a large crowd. It would be similar to BWs and Sorcs drawback mechanic.
Example:
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 300 unmitigable damage, with 10% chance; also, 5% chance to deal 150 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 10ft away from you
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 600 unmitigable damage, with 20% chance; also, 10% chance to deal 300 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 15ft away from you
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 900 unmitigable damage, with 30% chance; also, 20% chance to deal 600 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 20ft away from you
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-upon skill activation, player has a chance of damaging himself with 1200 unmitigable damage, with 50% chance; also, 35% chance to deal 900 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 30ft away from you

4. When there are above of 50+ friendly players in the circle of diameter of 60ft, ressurect abilities are disabled. Reasoning? Too many fighters, even the skillest healer have a trouble of finding your corpse under their feet.

5. Global snaring effect. Reasoning? Huge force runs as fast as the slowest one in the 1st line, unless they are on horses. That would stop the zerg stampede, and they would be easily predictable. Snaring check will occur every 5 seconds. Mount up time increased by 3s.
+ 12 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 10%; outside of combat by 5%
+ 24 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 20%; outside of combat by 8%
+ 48 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 40%; outside of combat by 11%
+ 72 of friendly players players on the circle of diameter of 30ft
-decrease the running speed by 60%; outside of combat by 15%

In summary, when the case of 72 players close to each other will occur we can get this cute combo:
-You can hit only 1 player at a time with AoE skill, with 50% of a chance of failure.
-Your AoE damage is decreased by 90%, ST by 95%.
-Upon skill activation, You have a chance of hurting yourself with 1200 unmitigable damage, with 50% chance; also, 35% chance to deal 900 unmitigable damage to all friendly players that are 30ft away from you.
-You can not be ressed.
-You have a 60% snare on you.


Seems crazy? Maybe. But the mindless zerg had no successes against highly trained armies.

Now, the cherry on a cake:
This debuffs are pretty hurtful and make your combat capabilities almost as equal to zero.
What can you do, to change this:

6. Implementing the RvR tactical boost mechanic.
What it will do, is making a new global skill tied only to RvR. Probably without client control it cannot be added, as a completly new one... But maybe to modify another which isn't used?
Only, and only the warband leader will be able to use it and it will work upon all warband members.
What it will do - for the certain amount of time, after activating it, your warband will be immune to all of those debuffs mentioned above. It will allow heroic charges, and also, it will be a reward to those who are actually doing the most in the RvR zone. The amount of time it will last shall be appropriate to the mechanic gathered.
-25 mechanic points - 5 seconds.
-50 mechanic points - 15 seconds.
-75 mechanic points - 20 seconds.
-100 mechanic points - 30 seconds. The damage and healing power of your warband is increased by 20%.

Cooldown of this skill is 5 minutes.

Whenever all of the players in a warband (Yes, all) are involved in taking an a BO, they will earn 12 mechanic points. Successful BO capture will reward them with 13 points.
Whenever enemy will take one of your friendly BOs, You will loose 25 points, but, your warband will recieve 25 of them back when point has been successfully assaulted by a wb.
Assault and retake two BOs in a row, without loosing one, and your warband will recieve 25 points extra, making it a total of 75.
If your warband will participate in securing every BO in a zone, it will have a 7 minute immunity to loosing mechanic points.

As an example, even if the enemy will take BO from you, for 7 minutes your mechanic points will remain the same, which will allow you to use the boost skill for some tactical push.

So... Just a few thoughts of mine. Flame on this, discuss, or just have a good laugh while reading this, I don't care.

What's most important, that upon reading this you might get even better ideas, how to change the RvR positively. Cheers!

Spoiler:

Either your timing is absolutely impeccable or you saw my comments about wanting to rework AoE. Either way, I'm happy you posted.

I would have done it this way (because of performance restrictions, some of your ideas are impossible:)

1) No AoE cap, it's gone.
2) Base damage of all AoE attacks drops by 50%.
3) The range of cleave-type PBAoEs increases to ~45-50 feet.
4) AoE attacks increase in damage as more enemy targets are struck, hitting their previous level of 100% after 9 targets, and going up to a suitable maximum when hitting tons of targets.
5) AoE attacks reduce in damage as more friendly targets are struck. The reduction is additive with the increase in 4).

So, let's go through the core of this:

I am sick to the back teeth of bastard chuffing zerg. No, really. I've had enough.

AoE caps of any kind favour the zerg and should not be implemented in any game. The correct answer is to implement an AoE system which increases in effectiveness when employed by smaller formations or diffuse/surrounding formations relative to large blob formations. Only by doing this, using the game's base combat system, will you force an engagement to spread out.

"But Aza, that will favour bomb warbands! Age of Bright Wizards!"

Nope. A capped AoE system is what favours bomb warbands because it shields their inner members from AoEs which should be devastating them. With no AoE cap, and a bonus for hitting many players with AoE, and a penalty for hitting friendly targets which is significantly more potent when few enemies are hit, the blob / zerg loses its ball defense and takes vastly more damage than it deals when facing a smaller or surrounding force using actual tactics against it, just as it should be. The friendly fire penalty is effective against the zerg because of its ball nature - players in the middle and back of it will AoE through other players.

And the counterplay against AoE? Very simple. Split the hell up. Nothing more, nothing less. 9 player formations notice no change, and anything smaller takes less damage than now. This zerg bullshit is going to go on forever unless we strike in a way that makes deathballing a complete losing strategy.

An excellent side effect of this is that it knocks the Slayer skill Inevitable Doom right out of small scale, because a melee train using ID will have its damage ruined by their very presence.

Azarael wrote:

Spoiler:

Why do you think they follow you? Because there is no guaranteed punisher, which they are also capable of respecting, which would force them to split up. Cannons and artillery are not examples of such a punisher, as they are nowhere near omnipresent and it's easier for zergs to scream "Azahammer / Cannonhammer" when they get smashed for 2.25k by a Helblaster. There are still a vast number of engagements that cannons and artillery won't affect, and in these cases, mass wins, so yes, they'll still cluster on you until the classes themselves have a means of punishing deathballing every single time.

I've heard this particular argument before, but the threat of people refusing to adapt to the system (especially combined with planned changes to RvR to disincentivize zerging) never stops me from trying an implementation. It just takes time.

Reesh wrote:Thanks for your response and telling what's on your mind.
I was talking about this for months and months, that AoE cap has to be removed to counter the zerg. It was discussed mostly with fellow guildies.
I knew what was your point on AoE cap, I remember the quotes that it will not be removed, "over your dead body", or something like this , that's why I was thinking about other aspects that might potentially help, which I've posted, and I know, are kinda impossible. The idea of them was the most important over the values.

Biggest drawback with removing AoE cap, was the accesibility from the zerg to it too. With what you've posted, well.. It might work, it actually might. But I wonder if the server will handle in time proper calculations and if it won't make fps drops even worse. Still, we need to pick a "better" evil.

Small tactical bomb groups, which were flanking out of nowhere a big blob with morals ready were a significant aspect on live, and I was pretty sad it wasn't possible anymore. With that we might bring a little stingy counter to blobbing, as it is a complete nonsence how it is right now.