Return of Reckoning

sotora wrote:Well you definately have more konwegedle of the game and even bigger understanding of competetive groups. Like I said I won't cry, if that is the way class in gonna be. Afterall I don't have to personally like all changes made to this game.

peterthepan3 wrote:you wouldn't take it over the healer (which was why Grace WPs didn't get a spot prepatch

My stance is only from a typical min-max meta point of view (only a handful of groups actively subscribe to this playstyle on RoR anyway), and not necessarily the only one; everyone's feedback/opinions ought to be respected, even if they do play scantilay-clad murderous lady elves such as yourself!

BrockRiefenstahl wrote:

Spoiler:

peterthepan3 wrote:you wouldn't take it over the healer (which was why Grace WPs didn't get a spot prepatch

This is exactly the elitist mindset of like 5% !?
This is the reason why MMOs get completely dumbed down.
If you only want to play 0/8/15 setups, well than its fine. But THOSE people force the MAJORITY to play the exact same way as those "elitist" propagating. The rest is bandwagon, all play it, so I gotta play it too.

Sure the old WP was a MESS as dps/melee and melee healer, but it was fine for PuG'gers and some ppl made it work with different setups than you call out as the best/most effective/meta. I do like the changes but the cooldown breaks it down, so that you are playing a "third/part" of the class. Feels good to have damage but at the same time WP's payed a bittersweet high price for it. (Hope they lower the CD or doing other changes, because atm it feels somehow unsatisfactory)

All this META chimera is killing game after game, because the cry for balance and streamlining (yehh we can all do the same) will become a neverending story.
But it aint work, unless you have only 1 arena and everyone starts with a machinegun and exact 30 shells nothing more...

Please dont get all this wrong:

I am open for changes, I also aprpeciate most, but all this META here META there blabla...
Are we really supposed, to play a game like a complete diehard capitalist where every single number must (in theorie) be maximized? While in reality its such a wonky game, with utterly crap game engine (movement, collision etc.). I just cant take it that much serious. Again, I like the game it is charming. But if you really want to paraphrase about all this meta crap, that somehow sounds just wrong. (at least to me) That fits into real competetive games, but not our "turn some rounds after work/whatever non competetive" game. Because its NOT. There are no ladders, there are no prices, so lets enjoy the game but please objectively and as what it is.

This

My stance is only from a typical min-max meta point of view (only a handful of groups actively subscribe to this playstyle on RoR anyway), and not necessarily the only one; everyone's feedback/opinions ought to be respected, even if they do play scantilay-clad murderous lady elves such as yourself!

Somehow the "non elitist" players get mostly completely shut down and often I saw it because of they cant "Theorycraft or express their points so well"

This is also a question at the DEVs
Do they want to change the game for "Hardcore" players, or do they want to serve the average and PuG players? They cant satisfy both. If the game lose the "PuG"ers then the HC players will also leave, because they have noone to farm and they will be fed up when they only meet the same enemy team in SC over and over again.

Still love you Peter

zumos2 wrote:

BrockRiefenstahl wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote:you wouldn't take it over the healer (which was why Grace WPs didn't get a spot prepatch

This is exactly the elitist mindset of like 5% !?
This is the reason why MMOs get completely dumbed down.
If you only want to play 0/8/15 setups, well than its fine. But THOSE people force the MAJORITY to play the exact same way as those "elitist" propagating. The rest is bandwagon, all play it, so I gotta play it too.

Sure the old WP was a MESS as dps/melee and melee healer, but it was fine for PuG'gers and some ppl made it work with different setups than you call out as the best/most effective/meta. I do like the changes but the cooldown breaks it down, so that you are playing a "third/part" of the class. Feels good to have damage but at the same time WP's payed a bittersweet high price for it. (Hope they lower the CD or doing other changes, because atm it feels somehow unsatisfactory)

All this META chimera is killing game after game, because the cry for balance and streamlining (yehh we can all do the same) will become a neverending story.
But it aint work, unless you have only 1 arena and everyone starts with a machinegun and exact 30 shells nothing more...

Please dont get all this wrong:

I am open for changes, I also aprpeciate most, but all this META here META there blabla...
Are we really supposed, to play a game like a complete diehard capitalist where every single number must (in theorie) be maximized? While in reality its such a wonky game, with utterly crap game engine (movement, collision etc.). I just cant take it that much serious. Again, I like the game it is charming. But if you really want to paraphrase about all this meta crap, that somehow sounds just wrong. (at least to me) That fits into real competetive games, but not our "turn some rounds after work/whatever non competetive" game. Because its NOT. There are no ladders, there are no prices, so lets enjoy the game but please objectively and as what it is.

This

My stance is only from a typical min-max meta point of view (only a handful of groups actively subscribe to this playstyle on RoR anyway), and not necessarily the only one; everyone's feedback/opinions ought to be respected, even if they do play scantilay-clad murderous lady elves such as yourself!

Somehow the "non elitist" players get mostly completely shut down and often I saw it because of they cant "Theorycraft or express their points so well"

This is also a question at the DEVs
Do they want to change the game for "Hardcore" players, or do they want to serve the average and PuG players? They cant satisfy both. If the game lose the "PuG"ers then the HC players will also leave, because they have noone to farm and they will be fed up when they only meet the same enemy team in SC over and over again.

Still love you Peter

Very off-topic, please make a seperate topic about this and I will destroy you there

BrockRiefenstahl wrote: Sure the old WP was a MESS as dps/melee and melee healer, but it was fine for PuG'gers and some ppl made it work with different setups than you call out as the best/most effective/meta.

So because a class can be used in pug situations to kill unorganised players - just as DPS zealots can, 2h chosens can, melee squigs can - that means the class is balanced and doesn't need to be touched upon. Got it.

All this META chimera is killing game after game, because the cry for balance and streamlining (yehh we can all do the same) will become a neverending story.
But it aint work, unless you have only 1 arena and everyone starts with a machinegun and exact 30 shells nothing more...

I mean people playing classes properly and within a group setting, synergising eachother's abilities.


That fits into real competetive games, but not our "turn some rounds after work/whatever non competetive" game. Because its NOT. There are no ladders, there are no prices, so lets enjoy the game but please objectively and as what it is.

Noone is saying Warhammer is a competitive game, because it isn't (anymore). Any efforts to introduce competitive play/events into the game have gone largely unnoticed by the playerbase/haven't gauged enough interest, so trust me - I know the game isn't competitive. That doesn't mean the game should be dumbed down anymore than it already is. Should we not encourage people to play properly and to the best of their abilities with other players in a group pvp game?

My stance is only from a typical min-max meta point of view (only a handful of groups actively subscribe to this playstyle on RoR anyway), and not necessarily the only one; everyone's feedback/opinions ought to be respected, even if they do play scantilay-clad murderous lady elves such as yourself!

Somehow the "non elitist" players get mostly completely shut down and often I saw it because of they cant "Theorycraft or express their points so well"

Really? Is that why there is a pug scenario now? Ade used his initiative, got feedback from PUG players, and it came to light. Everyone's opinions and feedback are equally welcome, regardless of their preferred style of gaming (soloers aside!)

This is also a question at the DEVs
Do they want to change the game for "Hardcore" players, or do they want to serve the average and PuG players? They cant satisfy both. If the game lose the "PuG"ers then the HC players will also leave, because they have noone to farm and they will be fed up when they only meet the same enemy team in SC over and over again.

The game is easy as hell as it is, and caters to average players already. As you said already, there is no competitive scene left - so why would you want to dumb it down even more, as an affront to those 1 or 2 premades who are still trying to play the game as it was intended?

Still love you Peter

Love you too

peterthepan3 wrote:So because a class can be used in pug situations to kill unorganised players - just as DPS zealots can, 2h chosens can, melee squigs can - that means the class is balanced and doesn't need to be touched upon. Got it.

That was not what I tried to imply. It was meant, all should take a step back and play what they want. If their "Leaders" do not allow certain builds/careers, than its time to leave them.Not only about PuG's

I mean people playing classes properly and within a group setting, synergising eachother's abilities.

Yes why not? But its not good when Devs start giving every class the same tools because class x has y I want also y! I prefer that they get their own toolkit improved instead of streamlining. That got nothing to do with dumbing down, because on top of that, I am against dumbing down Roleplay-Games


Noone is saying Warhammer is a competitive game, because it isn't (anymore). Any efforts to introduce competitive play/events into the game have gone largely unnoticed by the playerbase/haven't gauged enough interest, so trust me - I know the game isn't competitive. That doesn't mean the game should be dumbed down anymore than it already is. Should we not encourage people to play properly and to the best of their abilities with other players in a group pvp game?

Never said anything different. My point is until they've found a way to improve a Careers Build, they should be able to get into groups. Its the peoples mindset that we need to have setup XY and NOTHING else, and this is what I call FOTM Capitalistic mindset. Sure its good to have better chances, but its a game and fun should be at first place.

My stance is only from a typical min-max meta point of view (only a handful of groups actively subscribe to this playstyle on RoR anyway), and not necessarily the only one; everyone's feedback/opinions ought to be respected, even if they do play scantilay-clad murderous lady elves such as yourself!

Nothing to add here

Really? Is that why there is a pug scenario now? Ade used his initiative, got feedback from PUG players, and it came to light. Everyone's opinions and feedback are equally welcome, regardless of their preferred style of gaming (soloers aside!)

Sometimes it seems in the balance discussion there are certain people who try to shut down pointed arguments over and over again. Even if the suggestions were pointed out and specified multiple times by multiple persons. I appreciate PuG Scenarios

The game is easy as hell as it is, and caters to average players already. As you said already, there is no competitive scene left - so why would you want to dumb it down even more, as an affront to those 1 or 2 premades who are still trying to play the game as it was intended?

the game is not that easy if you don't use tools like Nerfed Buttons, certain classes need fairly decent Keyboard acrobatics compared to others "competetive-games. Where did I wanted the game to dumb down? Again, I wrote that I have nothing against changes, but changes that make a whole class into 3 thirds feels a little weird. I understand otherwise would come up balance issues with Hybrides liek WP/DoK

Still love you Peter

Love you too

#nohomo Love

peterthepan3 wrote:

sotora wrote:Well you definately have more konwegedle of the game and even bigger understanding of competetive groups. Like I said I won't cry, if that is the way class in gonna be. Afterall I don't have to personally like all changes made to this game.

i get what you're saying kolega and it is true that these classes are strong because of their hybrid nature (as you said, the DPS AM is a good example). My stance is only from a typical min-max meta point of view (only a handful of groups actively subscribe to this playstyle on RoR anyway), and not necessarily the only one; everyone's feedback/opinions ought to be respected, even if they do play scantilay-clad murderous lady elves such as yourself!