Return of Reckoning

Luth you are proposing changing Spellbreaker to have a 50% chance to shatter an enchantment and you'd tie some damage to it and assumingly a CD to make it balanced? Because I don't see the ability being that much more useful when its effect and damage are tied to a gambly 50/50. Not worth 13 pts in the tree anyway.

Unstable Convulsions is marginally more viable because Convulsive Slashing is a series of hits and the proc chance evens out (the tactic isn't used because the ability itself is garbage though). A one hit ability on a 10 sec cooldown (presumably) that has a 50% chance to remove an enchantment feels way too unreliable to be decent.

Now if you want to have Spellbreaker have no cooldown (or a low CD) and remove an enchantment 50% of the time then it feels like poor Shamans will have nightmares of Shatter Confidence again.

I have to agree with TTH, I'd favour keeping the ability as it is and dropping it lower in the spec. It feels like any changes would either threaten to make the ability overpowered or not change much in the way of it's viability for the mastery point cost.

If any spec tree shuffling is out of the question for now perhaps Giantslayer changes can be left for when Slayer sees bigger changes, presumable when ID/SL are adressed

Imo its not so much giantslayer is bad its skavenslayer is overpowered, when you look at choppas the best path is da hitta which is the equivalent of giantslayer mainly because there aoe path sucks.

Downside is ofc you have to slot power through to get the most out of it same situation for choppas but if you look at the pros and cons its pretty balanced, you trade not being able to drop rage and inturn become basically a 0 armor 0 toughness class (when debuffed) for massive spike damage while in yellow, you become reliant on working in short bursts killing targets in a few seconds instead of being in amongst the fight and dropping rage whenever in red.
You will have to always carry ap pots and use flee to drop rage when needed.

There are for sure some changes needed but nothing will make 2h spec work 100% because it would become overpowered.

Precarious assault and reckless blow(for choppa) suck beyond believe they should not even be on your action bar, removing the crit debuff on yourself would help and make them actually useful aswell as breaking point and strong finisher (for choppa) removing the crit debuff on yourself would make then actually useable, right now i dont think anyone uses them tactics and rightly so.

The problem with violent impacts and wear em down is its unreliable so you may aswell just slot power through/wot rules.

blaqwar wrote:

Spoiler:

Luth you are proposing changing Spellbreaker to have a 50% chance to shatter an enchantment and you'd tie some damage to it and assumingly a CD to make it balanced? Because I don't see the ability being that much more useful when its effect and damage are tied to a gambly 50/50. Not worth 13 pts in the tree anyway.

Unstable Convulsions is marginally more viable because Convulsive Slashing is a series of hits and the proc chance evens out (the tactic isn't used because the ability itself is garbage though). A one hit ability on a 10 sec cooldown (presumably) that has a 50% chance to remove an enchantment feels way too unreliable to be decent.

Now if you want to have Spellbreaker have no cooldown (or a low CD) and remove an enchantment 50% of the time then it feels like poor Shamans will have nightmares of Shatter Confidence again.

I have to agree with TTH, I'd favour keeping the ability as it is and dropping it lower in the spec. It feels like any changes would either threaten to make the ability overpowered or not change much in the way of it's viability for the mastery point cost.

If any spec tree shuffling is out of the question for now perhaps Giantslayer changes can be left for when Slayer sees bigger changes, presumable when ID/SL are adressed

I just meant if the absorb removal is changed to something else, imo it would be best that it would be enchantments (it would always deal damage, but not always remove an enchantment), because there is already a melee DD class that can remove blessings and enchantments are more common than absorb bubbles (choppa, shaman, chosen, magus, witch elf and sorc buffs are enchantments). Furthermore damage that is absorbed is not reduced by armor/resistances, so that bubbles generally don't last long (at least the 6xx - 8xx non-morale ones), if the target gets the attention of the melee train.
I'm aware that the marauder removes more buffs in the same time that a slayer would do with the change, but he still has to slot a tactic for it, while the enchantment removal would be directly bound to spellbreaker.

About the shaman concern: as i wrote, there are also other enchantment from different classes in the game and for the same effect that "destroy confidence" in one global cooldown had, it would take, on average, 6 spellbreaker hits (3x enchantment removal with a 50% chance) with 5 global cooldowns in between.

I'm not sure if spellbreaker needs any change at all and my intention was not to make spellbreaker stronger; it was to make it more useful in general gameplay situations, not only when absorbs are involved.

Morf wrote: The problem with violent impacts and wear em down is its unreliable so you may aswell just slot power through/wot rules.

That's true, i already wrote it in this thread somewhere at the beginning; though imo any buff to "violent impacts" has to be done carefully and must be tested before.
If it is too high, you could spam "wild swing" in the yellow stance together with the SMs "whispering winds" and as it is an exhaustive blow it would get the 75% damage bonus every time, which leads to 1k+ AOE crits on backline squishies.
Though wild swing could be excluded from cooldown reducing effects to avoid that (same for choppa ofc).

Morf wrote: The problem with violent impacts and wear em down is its unreliable so you may aswell just slot power through/wot rules.

That's true, i already wrote it in this thread somewhere at the beginning; though imo any buff to "violent impacts" has to be done carefully and must be tested before.
If it is too high, you could spam "wild swing" in the yellow stance together with the SMs "whispering winds" and as it is an exhaustive blow it would get the 75% damage bonus every time, which leads to 1k+ AOE crits on backline squishies.
Though wild swing could be excluded from cooldown reducing effects to avoid that (same for choppa ofc).

It already can be done but with those tactics combined:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sla ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

I had fun with it on live servers on short period of time, but it was only a gimmick. Tooltip of wildswing is average and it's biggest weakness is the ap cost. So using it as an safe brake for violent impacts is kinda foolish since no one will ever use it that way, even with 75% dmg it's still not going to be worth it.

Still, I'm thinking that change to violent impacts, by making it a viable tactic will open the GS tree. Cooldown reduction on deathblow will be nice, adjusting spellbreaker too, but without getting this tactic to work, as it has been written on page 1 and 2, GS will still lack a lot.

Reesh wrote:

Spoiler:

Luth wrote:

Morf wrote: The problem with violent impacts and wear em down is its unreliable so you may aswell just slot power through/wot rules.

That's true, i already wrote it in this thread somewhere at the beginning; though imo any buff to "violent impacts" has to be done carefully and must be tested before.
If it is too high, you could spam "wild swing" in the yellow stance together with the SMs "whispering winds" and as it is an exhaustive blow it would get the 75% damage bonus every time, which leads to 1k+ AOE crits on backline squishies.
Though wild swing could be excluded from cooldown reducing effects to avoid that (same for choppa ofc).

It already can be done but with those tactics combined:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sla ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

I had fun with it on live servers on short period of time, but it was only a gimmick. Tooltip of wildswing is average and it's biggest weakness is the ap cost. So using it as an safe brake for violent impacts is kinda foolish since no one will ever use it that way, even with 75% dmg it's still not going to be worth it.

Still, I'm thinking that change to violent impacts, by making it a viable tactic will open the GS tree. Cooldown reduction on deathblow will be nice, adjusting spellbreaker too, but without getting this tactic to work, as it has been written on page 1 and 2, GS will still lack a lot.

My point was about "wild swing" spam in the yellow/furious stance.
I fail to see why "short temper" should help with "wild swing" spam in the yellow/furious stance, when it only reduces the cooldowns of abilities if the slayer is in red/berserk stance. In the red stance it does "only" +50% damage, like every other ability too, which makes it indeed pointless.
My concern was that a slayer who specced into a dedicated single target tree would still be able to do lots of AOE damage (as i wrote 1k+ crits on clothies when used in yellow/furious, though i didn't test it lately).
In the worst case it would be like a reversed skaven slayer build: specced for single target, still does lots of AOE damage on demand.

And i didn't write that there shouldn't be any changes to the tactic, i wrote:

Luth wrote:[...]any buff to "violent impacts" has to be done carefully and must be tested before.[...]

Luth wrote:

Reesh wrote:

Spoiler:

Luth wrote:
That's true, i already wrote it in this thread somewhere at the beginning; though imo any buff to "violent impacts" has to be done carefully and must be tested before.
If it is too high, you could spam "wild swing" in the yellow stance together with the SMs "whispering winds" and as it is an exhaustive blow it would get the 75% damage bonus every time, which leads to 1k+ AOE crits on backline squishies.
Though wild swing could be excluded from cooldown reducing effects to avoid that (same for choppa ofc).

It already can be done but with those tactics combined:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sla ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

I had fun with it on live servers on short period of time, but it was only a gimmick. Tooltip of wildswing is average and it's biggest weakness is the ap cost. So using it as an safe brake for violent impacts is kinda foolish since no one will ever use it that way, even with 75% dmg it's still not going to be worth it.

Still, I'm thinking that change to violent impacts, by making it a viable tactic will open the GS tree. Cooldown reduction on deathblow will be nice, adjusting spellbreaker too, but without getting this tactic to work, as it has been written on page 1 and 2, GS will still lack a lot.

My point was about "wild swing" spam in the yellow/furious stance.
I fail to see why "short temper" should help with "wild swing" spam in the yellow/furious stance, when it only reduces the cooldowns of abilities if the slayer is in red/berserk stance. In the red stance it does "only" +50% damage, like every other ability too, which makes it indeed pointless.
My concern was that a slayer who specced into a dedicated single target tree would still be able to do lots of AOE damage (as i wrote 1k+ crits on clothies when used in yellow/furious, though i didn't test it lately).
In the worst case it would be like a reversed skaven slayer build: specced for single target, still does lots of AOE damage on demand.

And i didn't write that there shouldn't be any changes to the tactic, i wrote:

Luth wrote:[...]any buff to "violent impacts" has to be done carefully and must be tested before.[...]

I see your point that it might look like a concern to you, I don't see it as a threat, even at yellow stance.

55ap for a skill usage is one of the highest in the game, without determination slotted and a SnB tank nearby, such build won't work. After 5 gcds slayer will be clean and dry out of ap, even with party support provided with ap regen it wouldn't sustain for a constant spam of wild swing. Then there goes spamming it like crazy on clothies. But you can do the field testing, even though I've done it in the past.

In the best case, that every attack crits with 75% bonus i guess that it will do on clothies without guard (forget about doks) from 600-1100ish, which I admit is still an optimistic value set by me, since ID has a higher explode tooltip then then the lowest of value wild swing, and "big" crits at 50% from it are around 500ish. When it's ticking at guarded target its 100-200 or something like this.

My main is a rr50 Slayer (Wargrimm).I play exclusively in Giantslayer spec. (mostly due to 2h aesthetics)
In these "higher" ranks i am basically the only one playing that spec and for good reasons.

-Lowest survivability of all classes/specs in the game
-CiT barely competes with ID singletarget, but ID has AoE damage and taunt resilience on top
-no Shatter Limbs !!!

While Giantslayer is underperforming it is not that far off from being fine and mostly overshadowed by Skavenslayer spec.
It will probably never be a 6-man spec and that is ok.
Spellbreaker doesn´t need to be changed.It is fine as it is.It is spammable.It is cheap.That alone makes it rather solid.

-First of all i would make a global change to 2h and give it parrystrikethrough instead of block (especially before the WP changes)
-There is no worthwhile T4 - 2h Influence weapon (IB has a better one, Slayer weapon has + Toughness)

possible buff ideas (not all at once)

-buff to Breaking Point tactic : +20% flat crit not just for Giantslayer abilities, keep the negative trait
(even 25% would be reasonable, the tradeoff is very harsh - but let´s rather make small adjustments)

-my dream change: Devestate debuffs first and damages after (strong change;increase CD, prerequisite Berserk?)

-dreamchange2: Damage buff to Deathblow if Target health is below xx%


or just generic buffs to base damage and/or CDs.(Deathblow CD, Cleft in Twain damage)


Have to go to work : I will take the time to make a more well-conceived post later (maybe even a thread in the balance forum)

P.S. Oh and is it possible to remove the ugly red glow from Reckless Gamble ?

For me all cheanges sounds great. The most I like Rune of Absorption in GS spec in combo with breaking point tactic because this ability really need buff. Always when I fight with BO specced in T'ree hit combo he deal me hits for 1000 damages and I him for 300 by RoA. Probady I never win none duel with any tank when play slayer and have 53 RR. I win duela with mdps but never with tank LOL.

Bowldancer wrote: -First of all i would make a global change to 2h and give it parrystrikethrough instead of block (especially before the WP changes)

No no no stop


just stop


we had this discussion before, this same suggestion and it already go rejected already in the past


The only way to balance 2H v DW is to remove both the 10% parry and the 10% block strike through bonuses.

10% free parry is massive, while neither mdps nor tanks want to attack the shield of a def tank because flanking, positional, etc so block strike through is garbage

If both the bonuses were removed DW would have the advantage of having higher AA speed than 2H and more consistent dmg and would make them better for procing things prayers, enchantments, covenants etc

While 2H would have the advantage of bigger spike damage in terms of white numbers and the fact that most of the hardest hitting abilities in the game like death blow and weaklin killa are tied to 2H

Doing this will make the difference between 2h and DW more fair while still letting the 2 weapon playstyles be unique

Bowldancer wrote: -my dream change: Devestate debuffs first and damages after (strong change;increase CD, prerequisite Berserk?)

From what I do remember, Aza has already changed it to be like this.