[Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

[Bozzax]

Yep they stack and did on live as well

[bloodi]

Went and tested it mysefl and you are right, they do stack, i dont know why i thought that got changed here.

But again, does the argument that being able to cycle ID on cd is fine because order has extra crit stand? Specially when you take into account things like wound debuffs and crippling strikes that order lacks. Nevermind the fact that sw doesnt get that crit or IB crit being single target.

[Tesq]

Went and tested it mysefl and you are right, they do stack, i dont know why i thought that got changed here.

But again, does the argument that being able to cycle ID on cd is fine because order has extra crit stand? Specially when you take into account things like wound debuffs and crippling strikes that order lacks. Nevermind the fact that sw doesnt get that crit or IB crit being single target.

it is when 1 class when crit does x3.5 damages (BW)

[Gnarlimus]

Spoiler:

Im pretty sure most of the people who post on this dont play much. so dont try and talk if you don't know the tactics and synergies of you own faction. and don't call for nerfs on m4. m4 is never cycled 33% of the time like what was posted. moral is bombed with m2 and 3. haojuns post is STILL the only decent one in here. order need more help than i realised, you cant even read your own tooltips. morales are fine as they are. but if you want to buff the gain to lives version im down to test it. but dont touch the pump, haojun has already told you why it exsists.

descent/structure

Ad hominem / contradiction without support - you should probably think before you imply that my eyes don't work - Azarael

[footpatrol2]

These morale pump tactics lose how strong they are with the correct morale gain rate. Moral bombing is not bad for the game. It is a built in part of the balance. It is a fun aspect of the game and puts pressure on the opposition to win prior to a morale bomb. Morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's is just another trick in your bag for players that want to organize/coordinate. It is another reward. Morale bombs are not face roll easy to pull off either. It takes time to line up a morale bomb. You have to last long enough to pull off these morale bombs. Fights in this game are not suppose to last further then 30 to 90 sec's. I can pull up a video where a dev says this.

When you have group compositions set up for defensive morale cycle's and morale bombs individual deaths matter a lot. Not because your put on a rez cycle although that is additional pressure but because it interrupts your defensive morale cycle or decreases the morale bomb your building. Individual deaths don't matter so much in compositions higher then 6 man's. You can mitigate rez cycle's easier. There are natural counters built into this game to counter morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's. There is a entire meta built into this game for this, such as the morale drains or bringing a vicious ST group to individually destroy key morale bomb/defensive morale cycle components.

SM m4 Shadow blades which can be reached earlier then normal with AM pumping morale, BO Yer nothin m4 and Knight Solar Flare m4 are there to counter groups built on defensive morale cycle's or morale bombs. The SM/BO variant allows for your group to have a additional 30 sec's to deal with the issue. They buy time.

Some of the funniest times I've had in this game is running very strong defensive morale cycle's and running morale bombs over multiple groups. You can't have both. You have to choose to run a defensive morale cycle or to morale bomb. Its a tactical at the moment decision. I like to run unconventional non meta groups. One of the main reason's I'm able to compete with the big boyz is how the morale's nicely line up with each other and has a lot of synergy.

I can't compete or play the game the way I want too without the correct morale gain rates. I am at too much of a disadvantage if I don't have the correct morale gain rate. Having the correct morale gain rate allows for a more diverse meta to exist. The morale gain rate issue is the issue I've been holding my breathe on.

I was going to bring up a proposal on restoring the defensive morale cycle's that were available at one time in this game at around patch 1.3.5. That stuff is just straight up fun. This would clean up a lot of the game inbalances that was created after patch 1.3.5. Before that can even be brought up the correct morale gain rate needs to be established.

Restoring the correct morale gain rates is the path that will take the least amount of effort to re-establish balance. If you don't restore the morale gain rates your going have to overhaul a ton of tactic's and morale 4's and racial morale's to compensate for the slower morale gain. Even then there are unforseen consequences on not re-establishing the correct morale gain rates.

[Azarael]

We've known what we're (yes, we're) going to do about this for a few hours now, so I will be locking this topic.

[Azarael]

Unlocking. I am interested now in the relative balance of morale pump and drain abilities, not in the performance of the meta morale pumps under this new morale design. I consider the meta morale pumps to have an implementation which is akin to "Increases your morale regeneration rate by x% for 3 seconds" and so regardless of the current morale scaling, each meta morale pump tactic has a relative regeneration rate increase in line with Age of Reckoning's.

[Jaycub]

Unlocking. I am interested now in the relative balance of morale pump and drain abilities, not in the performance of the meta morale pumps under this new morale design. I consider the meta morale pumps to have an implementation which is akin to "Increases your morale regeneration rate by x% for 3 seconds" and so regardless of the current morale scaling, each meta morale pump tactic has a relative regeneration rate increase in line with Age of Reckoning's.

Going back to your breakdown

Spoiler:

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/s
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

Morale drains are basically non existent at the small scale level (I can't comment on WB vs WB), The only time I have ever even noticed being morale drained was by BO and that happens to be the only decent one imo, just because the spammability and value and the fact it's on a tank who can afford to maybe pull off a whack on a non focus target for a swing or two to drop their morale.

I think the bigger problem is just that morale drains are tied to attacks, and the targets you want to drain are almost always tanks because their Morales are just in general much more devastating than the other archetypes. Healers would be a close second, but as a melee it's just not an option, and even on say a DPS shaman (lol) if you wanted to drain a healer you would more than likely be putting yourself in a bad position to do so.

If you wanted to bring balance to morale pump vs drain I think you would need to add viable drains to under-performing classes on both sides. For instance adding a morale drain to blade of ruin on BG, or something like a tactic on AM that acts like gather round for shaman but instead of healing an ally it morale drains an enemy within 25ft etc...

[Luuca]

WIth the recent changes to base morale gain under circumstances, DFV on my Chosen has become less important as a tactic under normal SC conditions. This is a good thing as the increased morale gain has "leveled" the playing field a bit for both sides and while the GOoJF card that is ID is still available within a reasonable time without DFV, DFV is not as important nor a game-defining tactic. It's still useful, but not mandatory - which I think was your goal in the end.

Under-performing classes, as Jaycub stated: Is the AM an under-performing class?

I think this idea of a morale drain on classes needing a boost in utility is a good thing. The only issue I see is that the average player isn't going to place as much emphasis on an ability that has no direct visible results. After all a Morale Drain is the absence of an morale being used and people rarely notice things that don't happen. Smarter players will see the potential of a coordinated morale drain in situations; however, I doubt that a morale drain ability alone - unless the use of such ability is like a life tap, adding morale to party members - will ever be a reason enough on it's own to pick one class over another.

[dur3al]

I'm just bringing my quote here from Changelog 08/11/16 thread:

All Morale-Affecting Skills

- The amount of morale regenerated by any morale pump or removed by any morale drain is now linked to the morale scaler. A pump or drain will use its tooltip value only when the morale gain rate is 3.6x.

I also don't understand how moral pumps are all "changed" to work based on the new scaling system when AM moral pump takes a gcd for example, as in the chosen's one doesn't.

You're asking back-liners to be at the front line (have enemies around within 54 feet of an AM?) for the moral pump to work? I'm pretty sure you've just killed any viability in doing it so since putting a cloth healer within 54 feet or enemies is basically asking to be killed.

You can't just put every moral gain/drain within the same scaling rules since the classes play differently, position themselves differently & just work differently overall.

Currently with moral pumps/drains scaled to the new system, back-liner (such as rdps and healers) moral pump is completely useless since nobody will waste a gcd moral pumping with enemies within 54 feet, and if you do it without enemies at 54 feet (at the back-line) he's just wasting gcds since the moral gain is really slow/bad with the new rates.

This in comparison with front-liner moral pump (such as the chosen one) based on block will still work very nicely since his role is to be around enemies around anyway.

I'd suggest removing back-liner moral pump abilities from this new ratio system and simply reduce their raw effectiveness if they're making people gain morals to fast. Because it makes absolute no sense to have them all tied in this new calculation. Unless there is a different calculation such as moral pump is tied to healing effectiveness or something.