Return of Reckoning

Warning Issued - Penril

swaping pounce would do nothing people still need to go up that tree to get armor debuff any way

IMO a modification of Option 1 would work best.

COOLDOWN: The ability has been tested by the OP at 15 seconds CD. For Live testing, start there.If the ability moves to a 10 second CD, raise the AP cost by 10.


The ability needs a method of ensuring the pounce lands on the target, Not that the target is snared when he gets there. As such, why not make Pounce ROOT the target (Call it Pounce induced Fear) for the period of time it takes the WL to fly to the target. In other words, once the button is pressed (and range checks are made and confirmed) root the target until the attack completes from the WL. At that time, the root is broken. This Pounce Induced Fear would NOT trigger immunity to roots. It would be it's own "special" root. In this way M1 root is still viable, the WL gets on target without any free snare immunities/root immunities to the target, and Pounce actually serves it's purpose both attacking and defending. Defending, a WL could use Pounce to root (for the 1 second flight time) an MDPs on a healer by pouncing backwards to help defend.

With these changes, the added root, and the cooldown, Pounce would serve it's purpose and yet remain immunity neutral for the target.

Not sure if this idea can be coded or not, but it seemed to me the only way to keep the ability viable and balanced. It works forwards and back and does not hand out free immunities. The CD balances it for the opposition.

You have zero evidence that this is what will happen, unless you have a crystal ball that lets you see the future? Also, people can post about balance regardless of how old their accounts are, as long as they respect the rules - Penril.

problem of pounce

1-can be used as escape tool
2-do not land on the target while it is moving and things get even badder if the target have a speed proc
3-prolonged spam remove tooo many ap
4-sit should be a good anti kite tool but only until up some extend and not indefinetly (which is partially to to how land happen)


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2-not landing correctly
since the coordinates are too much perfect target needs to be stationaryl; so this lead to KD,root, or a stag effect and which ignore the immunities and last like 1/1,5 sec (but not snare ),which should apply till the wl land and so both characters are able to move again.

stag/KD--> would disable the target and also interrupt him
root--> would only block the target


1-can be used as an escape tool

you need to balance the need of pounce to be effective with a restriction that do not allow the wl to pounce away using this an escape tool.
A good compromise can be found at first in bind the pounce to the target against it's first used; this mean that for x sec pounce can be used only on the target and not as an escape tools, which would make wl be able to keep chase his target but it would limit a lot his ability to indefinetly swap target, this would constrast with point 2; so the best solution it's indeed a CD. Also considering if a root,kd,stag out of immunity happen, it cannot be spam or the enemy target it's sugject to be continuolsy CC all the time, then so in this regard a snare would be better as it would be more soft but it will still create problem with speed proc+landing.

3-prolonged use remove too many ap

-if pounce get a CD but it's secure that it will land perfectly in every situation then there is no problem; still the ap for a base skill with a long cd and low damage and it's probably the base main meccanic of the class should cost around 25ap not 30

4- this is regarding the fact that pounce negate completly the tank play, you have to make damages on wl if the guard is near rather than cc him away. This is until some extend ok but considering how pounce can be use mid air as a single aspect indipendently by others that's really over the top ( excluse the fact of the incorrect landing).

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So point 2 need to be solved after you solved point 1 either with:

-limit pounce for x second only to 1 target + add a snare effect that get apply while the wl is mid-air.
-limit pounce with full CD ; ex 15 sec but allow it to then root,KD,stag the target

Ap cost could be lowered even if you move in a direction of a permanent fix of the landing but anyway in that wayit could be left unchanged.
Point 4 can be solved the better with pounce have a full CD that do not allow the spam.

so the better option seems --> x sec of cd but also make sure that the target is correclty reach by apply, a root,stag,KD
which would ingore immunity and/or unbreakable for few sec.

How many CD seconds? theorically:

-5 would prevent target to spam it on the same target but if any effect as root etc is added then it's a hell for the target
-10 would prevent him to doing that but would not maybe to use it as escape toll, would not be a hell for the target
-15 would be enough to prevent all the previously both

To address issues with the pet.
Not sorry to pull the veil off this one, but in my time playing, the pet does not despawn suddenly in combat. If you take your time and properly target, it's more than serviceable, and often will survive encounters where you might leave it to do whatever it wants on it's own.

Basics.
Offensive - Your pet will attack the nearest target regardless of what you're doing, and will not be very responsive to commands. If you're using this in PvP, then you're better off following your pet around. You're certainly not the one in control.
Defensive - Your pet will remain at your side until you attack something, give it a command, something attacks you, or something attacks your pet. It is generally more responsive to commands, but when it is being attacked it will initially take the command, and then return to whatever is aggressive to it shortly afterwards. This is a much safer way of controlling the pet in small skirmishes, but you have to accept it is going to follow it's own aggro tables when being attacked.
Passive - Your pet will respond only to your commands regardless what is going on. If you really want your pet to feel like it's doing your will, then you need to use passive, and yes, click the UI buttons when you need it to switch targets. It's not easy, but it will respond to exactly what you tell it to do.

Key mapping is your friend. I'm not exactly sure what anyone else would expect outside of these guidelines. I feel there is quite a bit of exaggeration over how responsive the pet is. Prove otherwise.

Also to note, I am playing with a 15s cooldown on Pounce in these videos. Feline's Grace and Charge are necessary, but I'm still able to retreat to the backlines when needed. Claiming that Pounce is required to maintain defensive positioning is not true.

Full ruin set, quest weapon, Strife/Torment+Oathstones

3-prolonged spam remove tooo many ap

Would be nice if we could leave AP cost of pounce out of all future discussion. (Pounce never missfires in RoR)


So if you make it perfect "lands every time" which seems extremely excessive to me since

• - other gap closers, Fetch and TE for example have a high failure rate
  - you can already combine it with WLs other abilities for a higher success rate
  - in team play you can piggyback team mates CC for a much higher success rate
  - would more or less guarantee the WLs burst (best in the game) to land properly on every pounce

If you decide to increase the effectiveness of pounce and giving it a CD these are the abilities you really should look at for finding the appropriate CD.

• - Ranged snares SH or SW for example vary from 15-20s
  - Abilities that lets you ignore snare (Root, snare breaks, M2s) 60s CD
  - Abilities that "close the gap (TE, Fetch, Magnet, Rift, Choppa pull 30s CD
  - Abilities that "increase movement speed" (flee, Charge) 30s CD
  - (Renown) abilities that gives you immunity to KBs (RD) 120s CD

Being the only ranged attack on a melee class with snare, "speed proc", gap closing and a superb escape tool I would not expect 10s.

What you would loose/gimp at the same time

• - mixed group synergy
  - the best assist team tool in game on any melee, in fact the only one really
  - your get out of jail card with a very high success rate
  - kb "immunity"
  - Combo moves (pounce-fetch-pounce) separating guard and guardee
  - snare "immunity"

Also while at it lets debunk the myths Proper use of pounce don't
- put you at risk pouncing out of guard range

Leave sarcasrm out of the Balance forum. Also, being experienced on a class or playing a rr100 on live doesn't immediately make you right.

Wargrim has provided a video proving that the pet doesn't dissapear in combat (and you admit it yourself) which is what matters in the end. Since he has succesfully debunked this argument, it should not be brought up again from now on - Penril.

Kattastrof wrote:Writing this again, was stupid to make a edit.

what will happen when you add cd to pounce on every WL (not just 1)
They will become death magnets even vs pugs.

A CD, even 10 seconds, would make Pounce use JUDICIOUS, not SPAMMY. Right now, I see WL pounce in for the killing blow and pounce out to safety. They pounce into large clusters because they know they can GTFO unscathed. I do not think this was the intent of the ability. Pounce, in practice, takes the WL out of guard range, sometimes Heal range. Pounce as it sits now without a Cooldown, IF it worked as intended, i.e. puts the WL directly on top of his intended victim, would have very little risk, and a metric ton of rewards. Pop in, finish off that low healer, pounce out before you can get killed. Repeat. Do you see the issues with that mechanic? Its a mobility tool coupled with an attack on one button, repeatable without issue.

Right now, WL are spamming it simply to GET TO THE INTENDED TARGET sometimes. This is an AP drain and horrible for the class. We need to ensure that, when the WL spends the 30AP to Pounce to a target, he actually gets on the target every time. That said, we also need to ensure that stupid play is not rewarded. That's covered in your next few lines....

Kattastrof wrote:Everyone and their mother will swap target to the WL for the free reknown. Now you can survive because people know WL can escape and dont see a free kill.

This has to be the single saddest argument I have seen on this entire thread. You pounce out of guard range, out of heal range, into a mob of bloodthirsty Detru and expect to be ignored because you know that they know you can simply pounce out after stealing a kill from that engineer 230 feet away whos been grinding down that Magus for the last 8 seconds. You don't see the stupidity of that style of play? You think this is "good" and "Normal"?

If you are going to pounce in on a target surrounded by a horde of enemies, you should expect to pay the price. If any other class runs into the center of the opposition alone, do you honestly expect the opposition to ignore them because they can run out using flee? Pounce should be a situational ability, not the spammable get out of jail for murder button. With even just a 10 second cooldown, Pouncing becomes a highly skilled players tool to surgically eviscerate a low-health player out of position. A method of entry into a keep to kill that pesky oil operator. It removes the forgiveness factor for bad decisions and poor play. Once you press that button, you had better be sure that there's a reasonable chance you will survive for 9 seconds of combat afterwards.

Situational does not man useless. Situational means that you have to play smart, pick your opportunities, and roll the dice. Every class has at least one of these abilities. I main a r40 rr41 SnB Guardbot Chosen. Would it be smart play for me to run my 100 foot DoT Aura all the time? NO. It would negate the effects of Quake - my main tool for stopping/slowing heals and RDpS in the backlines and for stopping kiting classes. It's an ability that, if ran, would certainly rack up big numbers of damage (admittedly mostly fluff in SCs) but the drawbacks are real. It's situational. Run it at keep takes because it damages the door and any player who pops his head out of the door.

Kattastrof wrote:Next issue is kd + kb = out of healer range and dead.
Again WL live because they can pounce back to healer range.

Every other class lives too, when they don't go balls deep into an enemy line alone. This has been my point all along. You are using the ability incorrectly because of how the ability is set up at this time. It was never meant as a free teleport in and out of masses of enemies. It was meant as a longer range anti-kiting tool and keep take tool.

Kattastrof wrote:And why is someone with a 10 day old account talking about balancing a class? (This is not an attack, just curious)

I'm sorry, but yes, that was an attack. That's OK. I hope the by suggesting that the Pounce ability have a separate root, that it actually works to get the WL on target every time, and that removing the spammability of the ability would actually help balance the ability, in a clear and concise manner would not have made you so upset that you argued that "you know that they know that you can simply pounce away, so why bother" is a viable reason to keep Pounce without a cooldown.

AOR player since Launch, RoR player long enough to spot a broken ability when I see it.

roadkillrobin wrote:I would even go as far as adding a 5sec AoE snare to the abillity and increase CD to 15-20 seconds. All other melee classes are subjects to getting stuck in melee range once they are there. Having pounce be an escape tool just coz it happens to not have a cooldown is not a valid argument imo. Melee classes should be in melee range and should also have to face the negative aspects of being a melee class.

Apart from dps WP and Dok, all mdps classes have the ability to get out of melee range quickly.

Additionally, to reduce incoming damage while escaping, WH/WE have great medium range detaunts, choppa/slayer get to drop rage, and marauder can shift to monstro stance.