New Shammy Changes

[Miszczu5647]

I also would prefer swapping ability. With 2min cool down. In sc (~10 min lenght) I had 2-3 situation that I needed to swap my mechanics. Even 3 min would cover that but I prefer that my shammy is ... more powerful

[Culdu]

In my opinion it is really nice that you are able to play them as a hybrid now, but what I would change:

Instead of having lifedrains stat contribution removed I would change to willpower or int whatever is higher is contributing.
-> That would improve the flexibility and would let the char grow with equip like it should be.


Add two "Waaghchanger" abilites both removing the waagh you have on whatever side and leaving it with one point on the other side. One of the abilites deals damage equivalent to the waagh you had, the other heals equivalent for the waagh you had.
-> That would allow more situational playing than the constant change you need at the moment.


Even when talking about shami i also mean AM as well.

Greetings Starilas

[Ugle]

Pitching in my thoughts here..
While it is great that you look at changes to the mechanic to make shammies more viable (tried the .ab ex command myself a few times), sadly it misses the point of what needs be fixed when in full heal mode. As Snapsen and Teefz said, the biggest issue is ap related. On live this was alleviated at about rr70 with corresponding gear, and then you could slot tactics (semi)worth of slotting. Today, ap restoration tactic is mandatory. Sort AP problem and class is in a better situation. As for mechanic issues, when in full heal mode, mechanic is ignored. This is again bound to wasting gcds and ap on non healing abilities. As for .ab ex mechanic working good in duo roaming etc I agree, it is probably an improvement. Self heal nerf hurts though. When you need self heals, you need it fast. Not over several gcds. Sry for non elaboratory post, writing from phone.

[Azarael]

Pitching in my thoughts here..
While it is great that you look at changes to the mechanic to make shammies more viable (tried the .ab ex command myself a few times), sadly it misses the point of what needs be fixed when in full heal mode. As Snapsen and Teefz said, the biggest issue is ap related. On live this was alleviated at about rr70 with corresponding gear, and then you could slot tactics (semi)worth of slotting. Today, ap restoration tactic is mandatory. Sort AP problem and class is in a better situation. As for mechanic issues, when in full heal mode, mechanic is ignored. This is again bound to wasting gcds and ap on non healing abilities. As for .ab ex mechanic working good in duo roaming etc I agree, it is probably an improvement. Self heal nerf hurts though. When you need self heals, you need it fast. Not over several gcds. Sry for non elaboratory post, writing from phone.

If you're ignoring the mechanic when you're in full heal mode then you are ignoring the whole point of the changes. Heal builds mechanic for the ST lifetap, which is now about 1k heal, non-debuffable, on the move, with an optional tactic for AoE healing two players within 30 feet. The AoE lifetap is similarly empowered, healing the group for over 3k if 5 targets are hit.

Within the next month or so, people are going to come back saying that the class was dramatically overbuffed, once they stop trying to play the new mechanics as they would the old ones, stop trying to ignore the mechanic and stop thinking that Mork/Gork or Mork/Da Green is the only spec. There is no way that 1k heals and 3k group heals on the move, 1.2s cast and immune to heal debuffs are going to come back as balanced.

[Nekkma]

I have really tried to test these new changes but from my experience (only played my AM after tehse changes but the classes are so similar that I think my experience apply here as well), "playing the mechanic" does not work if you play as a healer. For a number of reasons, you will most often sit on several healing points. This does not mean that the changes are bad but so far I get very limited use out of "empovered healing" abilities.

These reasons are:
- You need to groupheal. Sometimes you are the only healer in your group. Alternating between healing and lifetaps all the time in such a situation is not realistic which means you will build healing points.
- FM BBG spam is still the best way to save a focused target.
- Lack of viable targets to lifetap from. This is the big one. The disrupt/block rate from SnB tanks makes it not worth using on those targets imo and those are usually the targets closest to you. The second point is that you need to be alot closer to the enemy to effectively lifetap. In the "old" system, if I healed with a dok I would mostly focus on ST healing and stay as far away as possible.
- Speccing deep in da green leaves you missing on several good things in the path of mork and the potential healdebuff.

Again, the changes are good but my bet is that shaman/am will stay as bottom healer if nothing is done to specificly improve the pure healing abilities.

[Bozzax]

Nod I find myself utterly gutted by how missdirected the fixes to group healing sham is.

[Jaycub]

Within the next month or so, people are going to come back saying that the class was dramatically overbuffed, once they stop trying to play the new mechanics as they would the old ones, stop trying to ignore the mechanic and stop thinking that Mork/Gork or Mork/Da Green is the only spec. There is no way that 1k heals and 3k group heals on the move, 1.2s cast and immune to heal debuffs are going to come back as balanced.

There is a problem with getting everything you want, especially on shaman who have a better 13pt ability in their healing tree. I don't see the full scope of these changes coming to fruition until RR70.


1k heal on the move is a great addition, and that's about the numbers I was getting on AM when i was healmode. But again compare that to the flash heal on zealot/RP which has 0 conditions, can proc 25% increased healing on target that effects all healers not just yourself, and a bubble proc which is anti healdebuff... while being 150ft range and costing virtually no AP.

The AoE lifetap can be a monster for sure, but you need people to bunch up, the 80ft range really kills it imo, and speccing for it hurts extremely bad. The numbers I was seeing most of the time was around 2-2.5k though.


While it may have been a second thought, these changes are however doing amazing things for DPS Shaman/AM in terms of their viability in groups specifically 3-2-1. I've only recently started DPSing, but the new mechanic is greatly increasing the viability for my heals even while having divine fury and about 300 WP when the group needs help, it works a lot like a DPS DoK does for destro groups. Boon is healing for 1200 noncrits with 1.2 sec cast time, shield is like over 1500 absorb... just so much extra reliable defense being brought to the table. Not to mention w/ 1.5 sec lifetap tactic your heals from damage are great and partially AoE.


I've done everything from small/large scale RvR, did a couple 6v6, and gobs on scenarios on heal AM both pug and in premades in the last week, but I just feel like I'd be doing more on a lowbie RP as the 2nd healer. It's gotta be even worse for a shaman who has to contend not only with zealot but with the double DoK meta.


Edit: I am in no way saying these changes were not a buff to heal shaman, it was a good step forward and I can't fathom how people would play without the experimental changes. I just think the gap between DoK/WP and RP/Z is still there. Maybe it's best to keep things how they are now and address whats wrong with the other healers or what's causing them to overperform.

[Azarael]

I have really tried to test these new changes but from my experience (only played my AM after tehse changes but the classes are so similar that I think my experience apply here as well), "playing the mechanic" does not work if you play as a healer. For a number of reasons, you will most often sit on several healing points. This does not mean that the changes are bad but so far I get very limited use out of "empovered healing" abilities.

These reasons are:
- You need to groupheal. Sometimes you are the only healer in your group. Alternating between healing and lifetaps all the time in such a situation is not realistic which means you will build healing points.
- FM BBG spam is still the best way to save a focused target.
- Lack of viable targets to lifetap from. This is the big one. The disrupt/block rate from SnB tanks makes it not worth using on those targets imo and those are usually the targets closest to you. The second point is that you need to be alot closer to the enemy to effectively lifetap. In the "old" system, if I healed with a dok I would mostly focus on ST healing and stay as far away as possible.
- Speccing deep in da green leaves you missing on several good things in the path of mork and the potential healdebuff.

Again, the changes are good but my bet is that shaman/am will stay as bottom healer if nothing is done to specificly improve the pure healing abilities.

Yep, good points.

I should just clarify, as even internally some people have misunderstood the intent - I don't want the playstyle to force continued alternation. The idea for heal AM/Shaman was for the class to play conventionally, with 5 heal stacks stored for conversion to move heals if and when required - this combining with the AoE tactic to target the complaint about lack of move healing when pressured. It wasn't to make the class absolutely reliant on having to alternate 1-0 to 0-1 - and if the payoff is still too low compared to the risk when it comes to using the lifetaps, in all cases, then I need to look even further at this. I might be continually underestimating the risk and overestimating the impact.

FM BBG spam will indeed likely outperform BBG/I'TT! alternation or raw I'TT! spam if no heal debuffs are in play. If heal debuffs are in play, each I'TT heal outperforms BBG by a factor of 2. Again, if heal debuff ignorance is not considered to be worth anything, I would rather change the typing from raw to standard and have them crit.

If tanks are still blocking or disrupting, even with the 20% strikethrough bonus, then it will have to increase to 50% or just be completely undefendable. Any damage done is fluff, it's not intended to do anything but satisfy some kind of logic for where the tapped health comes from.

Speccing for FodG is indeed costly spec-wise, and with the 80ft range that Jaycub highlighted (which I would dearly love to change, my god), it might be too much. The problem I have is that I want to move FodG down so that DSU can be used with FodG, but I don't know where the silence would go if I did that.

Nod I find myself utterly gutted by how missdirected the fixes to group healing sham is.

I'm sorry, but I'm looking for something a little more involved than making Gather Round a moving cast. I was amazed that you proposed that, as group healing on the move is about WP/DoK tier of easy mode.

Edit: I am in no way saying these changes were not a buff to heal shaman, it was a good step forward and I can't fathom how people would play without the experimental changes. I just think the gap between DoK/WP and RP/Z is still there. Maybe it's best to keep things how they are now and address whats wrong with the other healers or what's causing them to overperform.

There's no need for everyone to reiterate that they understand the changes are a step forward, but do not go far enough. As much as I appreciate the admissions, I've understood that the classes are not solved from nearly every AM/Shaman player who has commented. I'm just overwhelmed by the feeling, every single patch, that the next one, the next one is finally going to break everything and render AM/Shaman super-healers, and so I'm still being quite conservative.

I'm trying my best here to avoid having to resort to any kind of mechanics that leave half of the class dead in the water and make AM/Shaman a pure and total healbot. I just don't see how that's good for variety of classes/playstyles or for skillcap in general.

I do agree about other classes, btw. Inferior cleanse typing, the existence of the group cleanse, and auras masking out two of the debuffs AND the resist shield are major issues for the class. Solving those is necessary.

[Jaycub]

I do agree about other classes, btw. Inferior cleanse typing, the existence of the group cleanse, and auras masking out two of the debuffs AND the resist shield are major issues for the class. Solving those is necessary.

This is the biggest problem right now for sure, i don't even bother using any of my buffs/debuffs and the resist buff doesn't do much.

For the stat debuffs AM/Shaman have access to, a chosen/Knight cover them passively and there is no counterplay to them, the resist buff is also covered by them... again better.

But it's not just knight/Ch, RP/Z choose between ini buff or resists... they would use the latter in case of knight/chosen nerf im sure. Also epic quest offhands for WP/DoK do a pretty good job of covering a resist type. On destro our comp had no chosen, shaman, or zealot so our 2 doks ran ele and corp chalices to buff the group. Bellow dancing on BO in large scale fighting as well.

Giving Shaman/AM a unique buff that can't be masked by another class, or making the debuffs more desirable could go a long ways.


Either way, if you hold onto the hybrid mechanic you are inevitably going to make a class that falls into a category many other games have, where in the hands of an average player on a random team comp it's not gonna do much if anything it's a complete hindrance over something else they could of picked. But in the hands of a very skilled player in a group that is built around it... it becomes good or an absolute monster.

[Azarael]

This is why I hate item procs and abilities so much. You shouldn't be able to just pull in an item to cover for a weakness your class or setup has. With those offhands in the game, it seems we still have a problem irrespective of whether or not KotBS and Chosen get brought down.

(Also, as previously mentioned - the spectrum should range from sorta DPS to hybrid to 90% healer with some lifetap cover.)

Something to consider might be doubling the effect of Law of Age and You'z Squishy, moving them to 13pts Vaul/Da Green and moving every other ability in there down a slot.