Return of Reckoning

bloodi wrote:

Penril wrote:Except that I pointed out how strong Pounce is in a group when you combine it with Eye Shot and Slice Through/Earthshatter.

So a mdps is good when a tank puts a snare on their objective and a rdps kds it?

What a novel concept.

Stop with the smartass responses. No destro setup can do something like that, due to the fact that no destro class has Pounce or ranged KDs. Yes, destro has AoE snares but Pounce doesn't give a damn about that.

Now, no one wants fully-mirrored classes, but having that kind of synergy on only one side is definitely unbalanced. A CD on Pounce would be enough. 5 secs sounds fine (as i mentioned, it can still be spammed with Whispering Winds).

Penril wrote:Stop with the smartass responses. No destro setup can do something like that, due to the fact that no destro class has Pounce or ranged KDs. Yes, destro has AoE snares but Pounce doesn't give a damn about that.

Now, no one wants fully-mirrored classes, but having that kind of synergy on only one side is definitely unbalanced. A CD on Pounce would be enough. 5 secs sounds fine (as i mentioned, it can still be spammed with Whispering Winds).

Look, if the tank reached the target, the mdps reached the target, they are both melee after all. Thats why you get a smartass response, you proposed a situation where any mdps could already be there with his tank beating on the target, which much more success probably than the WL.

You know what is worse than eating a RKd and an aoe snare from a tank? Eating a 5scs kd, then the best wounds debuff in the game followed by the best armor debuff while your tank gets punted to the other side of the earth.

But as we both know, this situations where magically the advantages a class has shine, are not the best of arguments as to why we should balance right Penril?

bloodi wrote:
Look, if the tank reached the target, the mdps reached the target, they are both melee after all. Thats why you get a smartass response, you proposed a situation where any mdps could already be there with his tank beating on the target, which much more success probably than the WL.

You know what is worse than eating a RKd and an aoe snare from a tank? Eating a 5scs kd, then the best wounds debuff in the game followed by the best armor debuff while your tank gets punted to the other side of the earth.

But as we both know, this situations where magically the advantages a class has shine, are not the best of arguments as to why we should balance right Penril?

You clearly didn't understand. Let's say both groups have 2 tanks and 2 DPS. Fight begins, 4 destro melee clash with 3 order melee. Snares come and go, and at this point the SW targets an enemy healer (he can get close because destro melee are engaged), uses his KD and the WL pounces on him. The WL has nothing to worry about because destro melee is engaged away from him. If you have a RP he can try staggering the other healer. If the destro melee train makes it back to protect their healers, the WL can pounce towards one of his tanks since they will be able to at least have one destro guy perma-snared.

Destro has 2 AoE snares, one uncleansable by WP. But Pounce doesn't care about that. Order has 2 AoE snares, both uncleansable by Doks (IB and KotBS are Curses). And of course, if a destro tank manages to get to his backline and punts the WL off the ledge (let's say they are fighting in GoE)... he can Pounce back mid-air.

Destro has great synergy in different setups, but i can't find one as good as this one. Name one and i will stop asking for a Pounce CD. Actually, scratch that... destro setups are irrelevant to this discussion. Well... they WILL be irrelevant in the future anyway, since one of the rules for balance discussion is "No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror". Let me quote: "This means that, for example, if Destruction class X is in the frame for buffs or nerfs, we are not interested in hearing about how Order class Y must immediately be buffed or nerfed to compensate or how Destruction class Z has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first".

Penril wrote:

bloodi wrote:
Look, if the tank reached the target, the mdps reached the target, they are both melee after all. Thats why you get a smartass response, you proposed a situation where any mdps could already be there with his tank beating on the target, which much more success probably than the WL.

You know what is worse than eating a RKd and an aoe snare from a tank? Eating a 5scs kd, then the best wounds debuff in the game followed by the best armor debuff while your tank gets punted to the other side of the earth.

But as we both know, this situations where magically the advantages a class has shine, are not the best of arguments as to why we should balance right Penril?

You clearly didn't understand. Let's say both groups have 2 tanks and 2 DPS. Fight begins, 4 destro melee clash with 3 order melee. Snares come and go, and at this point the SW targets an enemy healer (he can get close because destro melee are engaged), uses his KD and the WL pounces on him. The WL has nothing to worry about because destro melee is engaged away from him. If you have a RP he can try staggering the other healer. If the destro melee train makes it back to protect their healers, the WL can pounce towards one of his tanks since they will be able to at least have one destro guy perma-snared.

Destro has 2 AoE snares, one uncleansable by WP. But Pounce doesn't care about that. Order has 2 AoE snares, both uncleansable by Doks (IB and KotBS are Curses). And of course, if a destro tank manages to get to his backline and punts the WL off the ledge (let's say they are fighting in GoE)... he can Pounce back mid-air.

Destro has great synergy in different setups, but i can't find one as good as this one. Name one and i will stop asking for a Pounce CD.

nothing wrong with your theory. except, as has been proven many times by gankbus vs. ccm - the destro team will LOS open until mara has m1 root. Root SW and bumrush with 4 dps. SW dies. snowball effect ensues as order quickly is on heels. This is best vs. best btw. Sure, a better order group vs a weaker destro group can pull off the synergy you are stating. But bringing a knife to a gun fight when all players are competent...just means the guy with the knife is getting waxed, imo.

Again - strong against pugs. not so much against meta comps.

K, agree to disagree. I gave my point of view, that's all i wanted to do.

New meta of pouncing on walls was made yesterday when not only WLs, but even SM using M2(wings of heaven) pounced on walls, so You had guarded mdps+tank who AOE knockback from walls, healed by whole WB from below, runnin on walls, killing foreman,oil and squishy unguarded rdps. Picklocking thru postern is not the same, because posterns are mostly guarded, while walls are occupied by squishy rdps and few healers. Some say You can counter that by moving part your mdps force on walls I say OK, but in funnel time, You risk ordie will break thru, because the part of your funnel is on walls and have to deal with WLs and SMs.

At the end, this is advantage destro coud not mirror and that was the reason, why on live this pouncing/jumping on walls wasnt allowed.

Must we pray for a balanced game and balanced skills?

I cant breathe the frustration of a lot of players.

This is not good for a game and server.

Maybe its time to balance.

Penril wrote: You clearly didn't understand. Let's say both groups have 2 tanks and 2 DPS. Fight begins, 4 destro melee clash with 3 order melee. Snares come and go, and at this point the SW targets an enemy healer (he can get close because destro melee are engaged), uses his KD and the WL pounces on him. The WL has nothing to worry about because destro melee is engaged away from him. If you have a RP he can try staggering the other healer. If the destro melee train makes it back to protect their healers, the WL can pounce towards one of his tanks since they will be able to at least have one destro guy perma-snared.

Once again, if to show that pounce is op, you need a fixed comp with a SW, a defined situation where the enemy **** up and has both a isolted healer ready to be pounced on and tanks tracking back letting the WL a perfect target to pounce to save himself, you are grasping at straws, there is so many thing that can go wrong there like for example, the enemy having a Zealot that does the same the RP would do, staggering the wl leaving him there until the melee train comes to him.

The point is i did understand, you are creating magical perfect situations and want to start a game of "then i counter with this" so i guess i will just refer you to this post viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11934&p=128326&hili ... er#p128326

If a ranged KD + pounce + destro melee constantly AoE snared by KotBS8/IB is a "magical perfect situation" for you, we are clearly playing different games. I see that ALL the time.

No one wants mirrors though, so if Destro is not gonna get any of those tools (ranged KD + Pounce) then at least Pounce should have a few restrictions, like:

- Not being able to Pounce mid-air.
- Not being able to Pounce up keep walls.

Fix that, and i will agree that it doesn't need a CD.

Penril wrote: - Not being able to Pounce mid-air.

I would support this.