2H Tanks: 9001th thread edition

[GodlessCrom]

Would it be fair to say that 2h tanks are, in general, not that far off from being balanced vis-a-vis SnB tanks? It seems the problem is not so much that 2h tanks aren't useful, it's that generally what is useful about them can be done by SnB spec without much, if any, sacrifice.

Crippling Strike Chosen IS useful...but Sword and Board can still kinda do it, and be more survivable in the bargain. Crimson Death Black Guard IS useful...but the debuff is a very short window and SnB Black Guard can do almost as much damage anyways so why bother? And so on, and so forth.

So perhaps buffing should be done to make these niches performable only by 2hers? I.e. move Crippling Strikes higher in Dread so only 2hers will spec it; similarly, buff Crimson Death so that is 10 sec rather than 5 sec debuff. Perhaps link certain abilities to Great Weapon-only?

And make sure certain must-have tactics (i.e. Destined for Victory, and so on) either also work with Great Weapon, or introduce/buff another 2h-only tactic to the point where it is on par with the SnB must-have. That way 2hers retain their unique playstyle (typically some sort of AoE debuff+melee train) without simply making them MDPS-lite.

That being said, still wouldn't mind making Focused Offense actually do something useful.

[Jaycub]

IDK I think the changes to guard/taunt might be feasible.

Maybe 2H causes taunt to also make the target take 10% increased damage from all sources, while the shield taunt can be used on allies now to decrease the damage they take by 10%.

Maybe make 2H causes guard to be only 40%, but increases the targets damage by 10%

Just really rough ideas from me

But I still think the biggest obstacle for 2H tank viability is going to be in the form of group utility / CC brought to a party. Which means changes to the mastery trees and tactics.

The best example of inbalance of 2h - s/b coming from BG who loses the best KD in the game for what little CD is bringing to the group.

[Tklees]

IDK I think the changes to guard/taunt might be feasible.

Maybe 2H causes taunt to also make the target take 10% increased damage from all sources, while the shield taunt can be used on allies now to decrease the damage they take by 10%.

Maybe make 2H causes guard to be only 40%, but increases the targets damage by 10%

Just really rough ideas from me

But I still think the biggest obstacle for 2H tank viability is going to be in the form of group utility / CC brought to a party. Which means changes to the mastery trees and tactics.

The best example of inbalance of 2h - s/b coming from BG who loses the best KD in the game for what little CD is bringing to the group.

Not having dirty tricks vs having dirty tricks? Plus all the other shield toys kotbs get

[Jaycub]

Ok best example on destro :^)

[Idrinth]

I wouldn't mind reworking focussed offence a bit, but purely upping the damage potential might be dangerous, what about:

Focussed Offence: "Reduces your armor by 30%, increases your damage by 20%, doubles stacks from taunt and increases critical damage by 5% if wielding a great weapon." - dps tactic, no need for huge changes

Unstoppable Juggernaut: "Set cooldown of Juggernaut to 20s. Increases movement, Buffs and Debuffs by 5%, 10% if wielding a great weapon" - a bit more mobility and group support for 2-handed tanks. Also this might make the tactic actually useable.

Rugged: "Increases Toughness by 160. While wielding a great weapon decreases parry strikethrough by 10% and increases Initiative by 40, if wielding a shield decreases block strikethrough by 5%" - would counter a passive -10% parry on greatweapons(that would be a good idea imo) and provide a bit more survivability that way

Tank-Passives to be added:
Twohanded: A 5% chance to proc 5 AP for the whole group
Shield: A 5% chance to proc [level] heal for the group

[th3gatekeeper]

Would it be fair to say that 2h tanks are, in general, not that far off from being balanced vis-a-vis SnB tanks? It seems the problem is not so much that 2h tanks aren't useful, it's that generally what is useful about them can be done by SnB spec without much, if any, sacrifice.

Crippling Strike Chosen IS useful...but Sword and Board can still kinda do it, and be more survivable in the bargain. Crimson Death Black Guard IS useful...but the debuff is a very short window and SnB Black Guard can do almost as much damage anyways so why bother? And so on, and so forth.

So perhaps buffing should be done to make these niches performable only by 2hers? I.e. move Crippling Strikes higher in Dread so only 2hers will spec it; similarly, buff Crimson Death so that is 10 sec rather than 5 sec debuff. Perhaps link certain abilities to Great Weapon-only?

I actually think you need both. Some clearly under-performing abilities (like Crimson Death upped to 10 seconds) should be done, but then ALSO looking at increasing tank damage a bit which is the entire appeal to a 2h tank....

I do know Knight/Chosen provide auras so there is some buff there but if you look at other tanks who dont offer the auras.... Their "group benefit" is much smaller than those two classes....

I think Chosen has a "niche" spot in that when you go crit+2H+Rending you can be damage that debuffs enemy damage - so it has a nice spot combined with Auras. This is the type of thing I wish other classes had these types of synergies. Like looking at Knight, you get basically a 10% crit bonus, then reduces their chance to defend by 10%. No damage reduction, no increase in damage for allies, no AOE "damage ability".... There isnt any "synergy" to it.... Noone askes "do you have staggering impact?" because its not meaningful in the same way... Maybe if Staggering Impact made the target take 15% more damage or something, it could be seen as a useful capstone (knight) that can be used for focus fire. But even that is kinda "lame" as its not quite the same synergy of the tactics...


I keep going back to the "increase damage of taunt" idea for a 2h tank.

I think the "niche" for the DPS tank is they are naturally much squishier (more STR > ToughnesS) and have more damage but that damage is still not very much. Unless you want to rework abilities by modifying damage, requiring 2H etc.., I think modifying a useless tactic to beef up damage making it more noticable having a DPS Tank versus a SnB tank makes some sense?

I wouldn't mind reworking focussed offence a bit, but purely upping the damage potential might be dangerous, what about:

Focussed Offence: "Reduces your armor by 30%, increases your damage by 20%, doubles stacks from taunt and increases critical damage by 5% if wielding a great weapon." - dps tactic, no need for huge changes

Unstoppable Juggernaut: "Set cooldown of Juggernaut to 20s. Increases movement, Buffs and Debuffs by 5%, 10% if wielding a great weapon" - a bit more mobility and group support for 2-handed tanks. Also this might make the tactic actually useable.

Rugged: "Increases Toughness by 160. While wielding a great weapon decreases parry strikethrough by 10% and increases Initiative by 40, if wielding a shield decreases block strikethrough by 5%" - would counter a passive -10% parry on greatweapons(that would be a good idea imo) and provide a bit more survivability that way

Tank-Passives to be added:
Twohanded: A 5% chance to proc 5 AP for the whole group
Shield: A 5% chance to proc [level] heal for the group

I think some of this is getting far too complicated and its trying to add too much to tactics already. I am not saying they are bad ideas, but I always revert back to "K.I.S.S." when looking at this stuff and changes.... "Keep it simple stupid"

I agree, a flat up DPS increase might be dangerous. Part of the issue of Focused offense is the armor loss. You give up 800+ Armor which is HUGE and basically puts you "on par" with non tank classes however 15% increase to damage doesnt put you "on par" with non tanks DPS wise.

This is why I think the BEST proposal I have heard here is to remove the armor debuff. Going 2H is already a loss in an of itself, not being able to slot a different tactic is another "opportunity cost" of this feat, so something LIKE:

"Increases damage dealt with 2H and increases the damage bonus from taunt by 20%" is really the best solution I have seen.

Its not a permanent increase, requires timing/skill to use AND taunt can only be applied to 1 target so its not gonna be used for AoE spam for high damage either.

Would give 2H tanks some "chance" at high burst damage to support their MDPS but its not just an "I win spam".

[Idrinth]

I think some of this is getting far too complicated and its trying to add too much to tactics already. I am not saying they are bad ideas, but I always revert back to "K.I.S.S." when looking at this stuff and changes.... "Keep it simple stupid"

I think I just worded it too complicated tbh, maybe a table would have been easier:

Would give 2H tanks some "chance" at high burst damage to support their MDPS but its not just an "I win spam".

I don't believe higher burst is the way to go(even if I'd love more damage for myself), because it just keeps dps-tanks as second rate dps Also no benefit to defensive, twohanded tanks.

[Azarael]

I think first you need to set out a clear concept of what you expect a 2h tank to do and what you expect a S&B tank to do. You also need a solid means of dealing with the Guard problem, as tanks are valued because of their Guard, and 2h tanks must have some means of weakening the effect of an enemy Guard if they are forced to weaken their own through loss of shield and stacking def - be this either through superior damage when they reach the target (as tanks will generally speaking be lacking mobility) or through unique interaction.

A no-brainer first split would be to ensure that there are limits or buffs applied such that no tank can be optimally played as DPS with a 1 hander. 1 handed weapons on tanks should simply not be capable of generating the same damage as a two-handed weapon or anywhere close while retaining Block and access to shield skills.

Conceptually speaking, you could model 2h tanks around primarily offensive effects and s&b tanks around primarily defensive ones, and possibly have some abilities (like kicks?) recognise that a 2H is going to generate more power than a 1H and should be capable of a better effect (it's pretty insane that you're able to super punt people with a bloody one handed sword). This is just an idea though.

Also - drop the idea of using FO as a mandatory super-tactic. Playstyle shifter tactics are a design flaw and should be handled by toggle abilities.

[Idrinth]

A no-brainer first split would be to ensure that there are limits applied such that no tank can be played as DPS with a 1 hander. 1 handed weapons on tanks should simply not be capable of generating the same damage as a two-handed weapon or anywhere close while retaining Block and access to shield skills.

While I agree on 1 handed having a bit lower damage potential, I highly disagree with making the choice between dps and tanky the same as the choice of weapons - there is too much other stuff that can play a role there and that should.

Regarding super tactics, FO might need to be tweaked a tiny bit, mostly since the return is relatively low for the cost. Might be a case of a few percentage points more armor left tbh. Distributing the "super" among less used tactics might be an option tho, would still give more options without increasing the power to much.

Abilities I'd also consider possibly better with two handed weapons:
Challenge - a tank with a twohanded weapon looks meaner and/or easier to hit, so might be a bit stronger
Taunt - same reason as above, you are a better target
Juggernaut - you need to move less heavy stuff around, might be easier to break free?
Kicks,Knockdowns - both might have a tiny bit improved effect with a twohanded weapon, since it should deliver a stronger hit

Regarding anti-guard, won't the kicks be suffiient already, especially with improved range? If there's an anti-guard, I'd prefer not giving it to every tank, make it specable and make sure it's costly enough not to be spammed.

[GodlessCrom]

What about making 2h tank the anti-tank? Give them something like an ability that debuffs Guard itself? Call it something thematic like "Break the Line" or whatever, and make it a sort of secondary Taunt perhaps? When applied to enemy Tank, their Guard becomes 25% less effective (random number pulled out of ass). Gives counterplay to guard beyond just super-punting people out of guard range (which, while fun, is admittedly limited) and gives 2h tank defined niche, in addition to class/spec niches (Crimson Death, IB knockdown, Chosen CS bot, etc).