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Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:21 pm
by TenTonHammer
Well we already know from azs post that's rebalancing of DoK/wp back line healing will more than likly happen
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:24 pm
by bloodi
Penril wrote:Pretty sure Zealot/RP need as much backup when pressured as Shaman/AM (maybe more than Shaman, due to RUN AWAY/detaunt tactic). I don't think it is about "yeah cloth healers need a buff" but more about "Dok/WP backline healing needs to be adjusted". Or in your example, i don't think Shamans are Scarecrows, it's just that Doks/WP are Messi and Ronaldo.
I think the problem is Rp/zealot can still heal while under pressure and running, shaman and specially am, get destroyed without backup and cant keep themselves or the group up when under it.
Playing to their strenghts usually means an overall less competitive group, imo.
Penril wrote:Does that mean that Shaman/AM/Zealot are bad? Or does that mean that WP/Dok backline healing needs to be toned down?
That is probably the first question we need to answer.
Oh we answered that already, that made OP really angry and i was told to hold my breath for it, as i am a mere little man.
Maybe we should introduce a mention of it on the first post? I am sure informative things like that will not be edited and removed, no one would do that.
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:25 pm
by Nameless
for 6v6 shamans excel above zealots and bring more for the group since the TTK is longer and the damage your party members recieve is more limited /by numbers/ and more controlable /due to defencing groupmembers tools/.
resto burst proc on heal, shrug it off 30 sec cd and alter to shatter will make healing shamans much more desirable healers WHEN dok/wp healing is toone down to more reasonable level
ps shamans and AMs now can be more valiable when healing on move thanks to grok fix it change. So esp when desperation is available that will help alot so dont fall for that myth
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:28 pm
by Morf
Penril wrote:
Here is the thing, we protect our backlines. So when someone applies pressure to our shaman, we all pull back and kill whoever it was (WL, WH, etc.). The Shaman will most likely make him overextend so it is usually an easy kill. Then we push again, with one less enemy to worry about.
The problem i usually see is that a Shaman gets pressured but his group is still overextending trying to kill a guarded enemy WP. The Shaman will have to use GCDs on detaunt, puddle, AoE punt, etc., and in the meantime his group is still overextending and starting to die (or worse; the Shaman gets killed and they all wipe). This happens because most player's mentality is "healers needs to take care of themselves" since they are used to super tanky Doks/WPs. Sad thing is, when they wipe they say "terrible heals, Shaman so bad" when actually THEY are the baddies for not protecting their backlines.
If the group plays to the strengths of the Shaman/AM, they can perform exceptionally well. At least in T3; we will see in T4.
Im not disagreeing with you, you are right but without getting into x situation this y situation that other healers dont suffer as much which is why sham/am are deemed as inferior. Combined with other things destroy confidence just 1, if you are the type of player/group who builds a group to win and win only you dont want a sham or am in 6v6 situations.
I dont have the answers but im sure with everyone throwing out ideas something good can come out of it.
Also about lifetap being viable, i dont think it is, you can do ok in certain situations but the lack of strong st lifetap or an aoe lifetap means you are made redundant by a proper healer or a proper dps.
I would like to see fury of da green and energy of vaul become a group lifetap, idk if it would work, be OP or what but it could be something to consider.
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:32 pm
by Morf
Penril wrote:
Does that mean that Shaman/AM/Zealot are bad? Or does that mean that WP/Dok backline healing needs to be toned down?
That is probably the first question we need to answer.
For me its dok/wp need to be toned down, like everyone who has there own ideas i would like to see the range of all healing spells on dok/wp decreased to 65ft, they are frontline healers after all and sitting back with near unlimited resources even if the base heal value is less then other classes seems a bit much considering the troubles other healers have.
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:34 pm
by Penril
bloodi wrote:
I think the problem is Rp/zealot can still heal while under pressure and running, shaman and specially am, get destroyed without backup and cant keep themselves or the group up when under it.
Playing to their strenghts usually means an overall less competitive group, imo.
Agreed. Which is why devs let AM/Shaman cast Gork'll fix it and Healing Energy while moving. Combined with the +35% tactics, they can actually heal allies while moving (althoug AP cost is still too high). I know, I know... maybe it is not enough. But it is a start, and it tells you that devs are aware of the main issue with healing on these classes (like you mentioned, not being able to heal while kiting). I'm sure they will get more love if they need it (they don't in T3, imho).
BTW, has anyone done the math and compared Gork'll fix it + 35% tactic to Flash of Chaos? Which one has more heal-per-second? I'm very curious.
@Morf: Destroy Confidence will definitely get looked at, i'm 100% sure of it. Hell, i will be the one who starts the thread for it once it becomes available for KotBS.
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:37 pm
by Gobtar
Penril wrote:Gobtar wrote: This is all theoryhammer at this point, but point of the matter is that you need to make concessions for Shaman/AMs/Zealots where you dont have to as much for RPs/WPs/DoKs.
Does that mean that Shaman/AM/Zealot are bad? Or does that mean that WP/Dok backline healing needs to be toned down?
That is probably the first question we need to answer.
I don't think zealots are bad, they aren't as good as Runepriests but are still amazing. (Testament to how good RPs are)
WPs and Doks are a little silly. Doks because of M2 meaning you can stack double Dok without a worry, WPs cause they have so much healing in tier 4, actually making them better when they are being harrassed. My problems with the Shamans has nothing to do with whether or not they are being focused.
1) they have AP issues. Mythic 'fixed' this with Sov...yeah nice one.
2) they can't cleanse BWs...this is a huge deal, might not seem like the end of the world in tier 3, but add slow boil into the mix and now a BW is an even nastier threat. Yeah Zealots also have alot of cleansing problems, but being able to cleanse BW/Sorcs is absolutely huge.
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:37 pm
by Morf
Nameless wrote:for 6v6 shamans excel above zealots and bring more for the group since the TTK is longer and the damage your party members recieve is more limited /by numbers/ and more controlable /due to defencing groupmembers tools/.
resto burst proc on heal, shrug it off 30 sec cd and alter to shatter will make healing shamans much more desirable healers WHEN dok/wp healing is toone down to more reasonable level
ps shamans and AMs now can be more valiable when healing on move thanks to grok fix it change. So esp when desperation is available that will help alot so dont fall for that myth
I wouldnt say they excel above zealots, armor proc, absorc proc and + 25% heal proc for me brings more then a shaman can.
The only valuable thing a shaman can bring and do best is the largest toughness debuff in the game with a tactic which means you are dps spec. Sure an aoe snare and ap drain can be mentioned but resolute defense and melle snare immunity cancels that out and ap drain can be cleansed, granted not by wp's.
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:45 pm
by Morf
Penril wrote:
Agreed. Which is why devs let AM/Shaman cast Gork'll fix it and Healing Energy while moving. Combined with the +35% tactics, they can actually heal allies while moving (althoug AP cost is still too high). I know, I know... maybe it is not enough. But it is a start, and it tells you that devs are aware of the main issue with healing on these classes (like you mentioned, not being able to heal while kiting). I'm sure they will get more love if they need it (they don't in T3, imho).
BTW, has anyone done the math and compared Gork'll fix it + 35% tactic to Flash of Chaos? Which one has more heal-per-second? I'm very curious.
@Morf: Destroy Confidence will definitely get looked at, i'm 100% sure of it. Hell, i will be the one who starts the thread for it once it becomes available for KotBS.
Even with the change i rarely use it, like u mentioned it has such a high ap cost, u would be better standing still for 2 secs and casting gheal,
Zeal and rp flash heal has such a low ap cost (rightly so) you can spam it near forever.
Also just to be clear despite all the negatives it looks worse on paper then it actually is, same way you would give a 2nd division team no chance at beating a top tier side, stuff doesnt always work out how we all think
Re: Shaman Discussion, more
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:47 pm
by Gobtar
Penril wrote:
Agreed. Which is why devs let AM/Shaman cast Gork'll fix it and Healing Energy while moving.
Even then the AP cost is still ridiculously high, continues with the AP problem.
It's funny that RP/Zealots got the same treatment for their ability...problem is even with the change most RPs/Zealots still kept it off their action bar. It says something to me that the main quick heal that Shamans have access to is so bad that other cloth healers wont even have it on their bar because accidently hitting it is the worst possible action.