Overarching balance changes

[grumcajs]

30ft range? Forcing them to pretty much give up their ranged advantage in order to stay in guard range and allow the tanks to do what they need to as well?

Tank mechanics just naturally work better w/ MDPS, and like discussed before those tank specific mechanics are some of if not the most powerful mechanics in the game?

nope I meant guard as mechanic that allows mdps to put a pressure on rdps casters and while rdps is kiting they do not deal that much dmg. without guard mdps wouldnt have a place in anything outside of solo or very smallscale.

Try to imagine mdps grp without guard vs ranged grp even in 6v6. I think atleast 1 mdps would be dead before they would even reach the rdps even with healers doing their best. Try to imagine it larger scale. What grp do you think would win if there would be no guard? Tanks guard is just a tool to allow mdps to actually be playable in organised larger figthts (my pov)

[sanii]

I'm more interested in what is the cause for the melee train meta, or why RDPS in general are under-performing in strictly 6v6.

The moment you get "caught" by any form of cc , be it WL root,champion's challange or marauder root or just a tank starts sticking on you ,unlike most melee you don't have aoe deataunt in case your tank gets punted , you have far less armor then the most powerful melee alternatives and if you are a caster you will experience damage loss due to setbacks on some casts.

As a result it also requires better tank play as a slower guards swap means that you WILL die fast . That added with the fact that the prime 2 offenders for a strong melee train on destro being marauder ( have either access to everything as far as debuff/utility) or Slayer on order (have a healdebuff + overpreforming AoE abilities that remove tank challenge-Inevitable Dom+shatter l.) makes it so that there is usually little room for squishy classes as even their utility tends to be sub par. There are some more reasons but this is generally it.

[TenTonHammer]

guard

30ft range? Forcing them to pretty much give up their ranged advantage in order to stay in guard range and allow the tanks to do what they need to as well?

Tank mechanics just naturally work better w/ MDPS, and like discussed before those tank specific mechanics are some of if not the most powerful mechanics in the game?

Anti kite tools like pulls are also a factor to consider

[roadkillrobin]

roadkill all those quotes say is that 'there are more forms of pvp than scenarios' - which noone disputed - and 'rvr is all about big battles, and in war we do this by <blabla>' ... which doesn't add much.

honestly man you're a cool guy but i don't see why you're so strongly opposed to balancing classes around 6v6 (a lot of people on the forums who are active in these discussions and offer suggestions etc like this form of pvp, or even 6vx/scenario) as well as ensuring all classes can perform well in WB v WB/rvr. that would be ideal, no?

He says that RVR is about larger groups and then says scenarios is a form of RVR

I've explained this allready aswell, Ballancing around 6v6 will probobly not translate very good in other small scale formats like 12v12, just like ballancing around 1v1 would not really translate very well into 6v6. I got nothing against people who wanna do 6v6 or 1v1 but any kinda class or mechanical changes kinda needs to be done with 12v12 and 24vs24 as it's main focus.
If the Devs here want to take the game in completly ifferent direction then fine. But it would be like running against the wind and uphill as the core of the game doesn't really support it very well.
I've played this game since 2008, i've seen pretty much every patch up til 1.4.5. 2/3 of the players hated EC, the reason why it's the moast played SC is coz it was the fastest one to finnish in a area were you needed to grind a SHITLOADS of Emblems and Insignias.

but scenarios aren't RvR, lol. i'd believe that if scenarios contributed to the realm but they don't (anymore) - it's instanced PvP. no ifs, no buts. why would balancing not translate well into larger? from a logistics point of view, its a hell of a lot easier to balance small then go big, don't you think? i don't think the inverse can even be achieved!

It doesn't translate well coz the more players the more incomming damage, while group buffs, groupheals and defensive stats doesn't change.

[Jaycub]

Aside from pulls MDPS except WE/WH have charge, and all of them get 10 seconds of snare immunity. Which in the current meta w/ BO/Knight having essentially ranged AoE perma snares the only time anything isn't snared is if it has immunity.

RDPS aside from SW/SH have no mobility options, and SH/SW have probably the best defense from phy attacks w/ SW mechanic for increasing armor being a lot better than SH? Engineer/Magus have the armor buff but it gets ripped pretty much instantly because there isn't much enchants being thrown around in compared to blessings, and those armor buffs are going to be the oldest ones anyways? They do stack with pots btw.

[TenTonHammer]

It doesn't translate well coz the more players the more incomming damage, while group buffs, groupheals and defensive stats doesn't change.

Then what you would want; to balance for ORVR and 24v24, would require a massive rework which isnt going to happen

[sanii]

Also in group play due to AAs from melee ,proc abilities ; from WPs/DoK - and BO/SM tend to be MUCH MUCH stronger on Melee then on Range

[Jaycub]

Can skullthumper/blurring shock proc things?

[sanii]

Can skullthumper/blurring shock proc things?

Negative!

[roadkillrobin]

It doesn't translate well coz the more players the more incomming damage, while group buffs, groupheals and defensive stats doesn't change.

Then what you would want; to balance for ORVR and 24v24, would require a massive rework which isnt going to happen

The game is much more ballanced for ORVR and 24man then it is for 6v6 allready.
Game needs an Anchor for single target dmg, wich imo should be 12v12 and another Anchor for AoE dmg wich imo should be 24/24.