Re: [Split] Marauder discussion
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:27 pm
Since the sheer amount of ignorance in this thread is reaching critical mass, I'll explain what makes Marauders a good class, and why if you remove their tools, you will ruin them.
Currently what is the Marauders purpose?
The Marauder is a medium armored MDPS class that has a stance locking mechanic.
Savagery is used for debuffing. In this stance, the Marauder has decent sustained damage, but low burst.
Brutality is used for single target damage. In this stance, the Marauder has good burst and sustained damage, but low debuffs.
Monstro is used for trying to survive against melee trains, and for fluff AoE damage. In this stance, the Marauder has bad damage and bad debuffs.
What are these amazing debuffs Marauder has?
The Marauder has a Wounds debuff.
The Marauder has an Armor debuff.
The Marauder has a Heal debuff (that requires a tactic slot used to be any good).
This is the majority extent of the Marauders "good" debuffs (they have a toughness debuff too, its usually not worth using later on unless the target is extremely hard to take down). Yes that is right, three whole debuffs! Oh my god so OP.
When the Marauder swaps over to do burst damage (Brutality), they lose access to both heal, and armor debuffs. So the Marauder will often be in Savagery to apply debuffs, swap over to Brutality to deal damage, and swap back to Savagery to re-apply debuffs. As the debuffs last roughly 10 seconds (outside of the wounds which is 20), the Marauder will spend about 50% of their time debuffing, and not doing their burst damage.
When you switch a stance, you are locked from switching other stances for 5 seconds. You cannot just swap whenever you want, and this is critical. A Marauder cannot debuff and deal high damage all at the same time. They pick one or the other, and then are locked into that for at least 5 seconds.
The Marauder deals good damage! Yes, it is an MDPS class, and it should be able to deal some damage. The Marauder still, to this day, doesn't have the damage of the Choppa or Slayer (and shouldn't), nor does it even have the front-loaded burst of a WL.
The key problem with most "nerf marauder" whines, is the crux of their argument comes down to this:
The Marauder shouldn't have access to their THREE decent debuffs, and be able to deal damage. Three debuffs is clearly waaaay too much utility. Also, they shouldn't be able to have good damage while also being SOOO tank-like survivable (and they are never tank level survivable and when they are trying to stay alive from melee trains in Monstro they can do barely anything else, they lose access to their debuffs and damage).
The main problem is, people don't understand how the class works, they don't understand how stances work, they look at the class on paper and go "hurrr durr they have access to debuffs, damage and survivability, must be OP!". The problem is, that is not how the class works, or has ever worked. If you want survivability, your debuff and damage is terrible. While you are debuffing, you lose your survivability and burst damage. And while you are trying to deal your burst damage, you can't apply your debuffs nor is your survivability good. You don't get everything just because it is in the career builder on the website.
In a best case situation, the Marauder spends about 50% of its time in Savagery applying debuffs, and 50% in Brutality, trying to deal damage to those debuffed targets before those debuffs wear off and they do it again.
THIS IS WHAT THE CLASS WAS DESIGNED TO DO. THIS IS THE POINT OF THE CLASS.
People who cry nerf on the Marauder class over and over again make some very ridiculous arguments. In their minds, the Marauder has access to every ability at once, stances don't have cooldown, and the world is made out of cotton candy or some ****.
The Marauder already chooses between debuffs, damage, and survivability. It's called their stances.
The Marauder has some better debuffs than other MDPS classes when taken as a whole. However, things like ID definitely make the argument that the Marauder has "too much debuffs", a bit silly. Most MDPS classes have some kind of debuffs, and the ones that are deficient on debuffs (like the WL) have something else to compensate (mobility in the WLs case).
So the point being is:
If the Marauder cannot debuff and deal damage, what is the purpose of the class? This is how its paths are designed, this is how the class was designed, and this is why it was changed over the years to actually be able to play as an MDPS class instead of a toughness stacking debuff bot. Marauders damage used to be a complete joke, until people like me made enough compelling arguments to the devs to actually get the class buffed to be good. That's where it is now, and you just want to gut it again.
The choice is not "the Marauder should have to choose between debuffs and damage", the choice is "if Marauders can't debuff and damage, I'll choose to play a class that isn't a joke".
The Marauder has a very specific role and niche. It can apply some solid, good, single target debuffs, and switch over to deal single target damage. That is all it really can do well. Removing this neuters the class into once again being "just bad debuff bots".
If you take away the Marauders ability to debuff, they are a bad version of every other MDPS class, without tools needed to fulfull their role. People like to talk about Marauders debuffs on and on again like they get so many (they don't) and ignore all the debuffs/buffs/and utility skills other MDPS classes have.
If you take away the Marauders damage, they are a bad version of a debuff tank that has no guard and no tank tools to do anything useful. This is how Marauders were for the first two years of WAR. Nobody needs to theorize on what it was like, because we've already experienced it.
So any call for nerfs to Marauder need to be framed in such a way that doesn't totally ruin the class. It may your personal opinion that they do too much damage (I don't think this is the case), and if that's the case, make a suggestion about how to tune their damage down without making them inable to do damage and debuff. It may be your personal opinons that the Marauders debuffs are too good (this definitely isn't the case, but one could make the argument, and if you believe that, try to re-work the debuffs to where you think they are balanced, not remove the Marauders ability to debuff or damage properly.
The reality is that people like to think about the Marauder in a vacuum and don't compare it to other MDPS classes.
Compared to a WL a Marauder:
Has better sustained damage, and worse burst.
Has better debuffs, but worse mobility.
Has similar survivability (both med armor, pounce gets you out of melee trains, monstro armor pen helps your try to tank them).
So the Marauder trades mobility for debuffs vs a WL.
Compared to a Choppa/Slayer a Marauder:
Has less damage, especially AoE.
Has better single target debuffs (but worse group utility/Aoe debuffs)
Has better survivability
So the Marauder trades survivability for damage vs a Choppa/Slayer.
I could go into WH/WE, but that trade should be obvious to those who know how the WH/WE are unique in the MDPS category (basically its stealth and burst vs sustained and survivability).
If the Marauder cannot debuff and deal damage, then its a broken and bad class.
Should the WL have to give up pounce and it's snares to deal damage?
Should the Choppa/Slayer have to give up their AoE to deal single target damage?
It's the same kind of bad arguments.
The reality is the Marauder is probably the most "well-rounded" MDPS class at the moment. Which is why a lot of people can't grasp that is isn't OP. It doesn't have the best damage by any means, but it does good damage. It doesn't have "tank like" survivability, but it has good survivability for a MDPS class, it doesn't have "all the best debuffs", but it has good debuffs, it doesn't have "horrible mobility", but has decent mobility. Etc.. The Marauder is a "jack of all trades" kind of MDPS class, capable of a lot of things but having no special role outside of the most potent single target debuffs, and the best physical survivability. However, as explained above, a Marauder simply can't do everything at once. This is why it is a stance based class. You don't have your high survivability while you are able to deal damage or debuff, you have to pick one of these things and stick with it. Yes you can swap to another thing when the timing is right, that is how the class was designed and meant to be played.
Currently what is the Marauders purpose?
The Marauder is a medium armored MDPS class that has a stance locking mechanic.
Savagery is used for debuffing. In this stance, the Marauder has decent sustained damage, but low burst.
Brutality is used for single target damage. In this stance, the Marauder has good burst and sustained damage, but low debuffs.
Monstro is used for trying to survive against melee trains, and for fluff AoE damage. In this stance, the Marauder has bad damage and bad debuffs.
What are these amazing debuffs Marauder has?
The Marauder has a Wounds debuff.
The Marauder has an Armor debuff.
The Marauder has a Heal debuff (that requires a tactic slot used to be any good).
This is the majority extent of the Marauders "good" debuffs (they have a toughness debuff too, its usually not worth using later on unless the target is extremely hard to take down). Yes that is right, three whole debuffs! Oh my god so OP.
When the Marauder swaps over to do burst damage (Brutality), they lose access to both heal, and armor debuffs. So the Marauder will often be in Savagery to apply debuffs, swap over to Brutality to deal damage, and swap back to Savagery to re-apply debuffs. As the debuffs last roughly 10 seconds (outside of the wounds which is 20), the Marauder will spend about 50% of their time debuffing, and not doing their burst damage.
When you switch a stance, you are locked from switching other stances for 5 seconds. You cannot just swap whenever you want, and this is critical. A Marauder cannot debuff and deal high damage all at the same time. They pick one or the other, and then are locked into that for at least 5 seconds.
The Marauder deals good damage! Yes, it is an MDPS class, and it should be able to deal some damage. The Marauder still, to this day, doesn't have the damage of the Choppa or Slayer (and shouldn't), nor does it even have the front-loaded burst of a WL.
The key problem with most "nerf marauder" whines, is the crux of their argument comes down to this:
The Marauder shouldn't have access to their THREE decent debuffs, and be able to deal damage. Three debuffs is clearly waaaay too much utility. Also, they shouldn't be able to have good damage while also being SOOO tank-like survivable (and they are never tank level survivable and when they are trying to stay alive from melee trains in Monstro they can do barely anything else, they lose access to their debuffs and damage).
The main problem is, people don't understand how the class works, they don't understand how stances work, they look at the class on paper and go "hurrr durr they have access to debuffs, damage and survivability, must be OP!". The problem is, that is not how the class works, or has ever worked. If you want survivability, your debuff and damage is terrible. While you are debuffing, you lose your survivability and burst damage. And while you are trying to deal your burst damage, you can't apply your debuffs nor is your survivability good. You don't get everything just because it is in the career builder on the website.
In a best case situation, the Marauder spends about 50% of its time in Savagery applying debuffs, and 50% in Brutality, trying to deal damage to those debuffed targets before those debuffs wear off and they do it again.
THIS IS WHAT THE CLASS WAS DESIGNED TO DO. THIS IS THE POINT OF THE CLASS.
People who cry nerf on the Marauder class over and over again make some very ridiculous arguments. In their minds, the Marauder has access to every ability at once, stances don't have cooldown, and the world is made out of cotton candy or some ****.
The Marauder already chooses between debuffs, damage, and survivability. It's called their stances.
The Marauder has some better debuffs than other MDPS classes when taken as a whole. However, things like ID definitely make the argument that the Marauder has "too much debuffs", a bit silly. Most MDPS classes have some kind of debuffs, and the ones that are deficient on debuffs (like the WL) have something else to compensate (mobility in the WLs case).
So the point being is:
If the Marauder cannot debuff and deal damage, what is the purpose of the class? This is how its paths are designed, this is how the class was designed, and this is why it was changed over the years to actually be able to play as an MDPS class instead of a toughness stacking debuff bot. Marauders damage used to be a complete joke, until people like me made enough compelling arguments to the devs to actually get the class buffed to be good. That's where it is now, and you just want to gut it again.
The choice is not "the Marauder should have to choose between debuffs and damage", the choice is "if Marauders can't debuff and damage, I'll choose to play a class that isn't a joke".
The Marauder has a very specific role and niche. It can apply some solid, good, single target debuffs, and switch over to deal single target damage. That is all it really can do well. Removing this neuters the class into once again being "just bad debuff bots".
If you take away the Marauders ability to debuff, they are a bad version of every other MDPS class, without tools needed to fulfull their role. People like to talk about Marauders debuffs on and on again like they get so many (they don't) and ignore all the debuffs/buffs/and utility skills other MDPS classes have.
If you take away the Marauders damage, they are a bad version of a debuff tank that has no guard and no tank tools to do anything useful. This is how Marauders were for the first two years of WAR. Nobody needs to theorize on what it was like, because we've already experienced it.
So any call for nerfs to Marauder need to be framed in such a way that doesn't totally ruin the class. It may your personal opinion that they do too much damage (I don't think this is the case), and if that's the case, make a suggestion about how to tune their damage down without making them inable to do damage and debuff. It may be your personal opinons that the Marauders debuffs are too good (this definitely isn't the case, but one could make the argument, and if you believe that, try to re-work the debuffs to where you think they are balanced, not remove the Marauders ability to debuff or damage properly.
The reality is that people like to think about the Marauder in a vacuum and don't compare it to other MDPS classes.
Compared to a WL a Marauder:
Has better sustained damage, and worse burst.
Has better debuffs, but worse mobility.
Has similar survivability (both med armor, pounce gets you out of melee trains, monstro armor pen helps your try to tank them).
So the Marauder trades mobility for debuffs vs a WL.
Compared to a Choppa/Slayer a Marauder:
Has less damage, especially AoE.
Has better single target debuffs (but worse group utility/Aoe debuffs)
Has better survivability
So the Marauder trades survivability for damage vs a Choppa/Slayer.
I could go into WH/WE, but that trade should be obvious to those who know how the WH/WE are unique in the MDPS category (basically its stealth and burst vs sustained and survivability).
If the Marauder cannot debuff and deal damage, then its a broken and bad class.
Should the WL have to give up pounce and it's snares to deal damage?
Should the Choppa/Slayer have to give up their AoE to deal single target damage?
It's the same kind of bad arguments.
The reality is the Marauder is probably the most "well-rounded" MDPS class at the moment. Which is why a lot of people can't grasp that is isn't OP. It doesn't have the best damage by any means, but it does good damage. It doesn't have "tank like" survivability, but it has good survivability for a MDPS class, it doesn't have "all the best debuffs", but it has good debuffs, it doesn't have "horrible mobility", but has decent mobility. Etc.. The Marauder is a "jack of all trades" kind of MDPS class, capable of a lot of things but having no special role outside of the most potent single target debuffs, and the best physical survivability. However, as explained above, a Marauder simply can't do everything at once. This is why it is a stance based class. You don't have your high survivability while you are able to deal damage or debuff, you have to pick one of these things and stick with it. Yes you can swap to another thing when the timing is right, that is how the class was designed and meant to be played.