[Split] Marauder discussion

[Coryphaus]

Ok lests just clear this out of the way first; mara has and never will deal more pure dps than slayer and choppa to state otherwise is false

now tesq, im not sure if your aware or not but this is how maras spaec:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :5194:5204:

no points are ever put into monstro unless you plan on using the class for pve or have never played the class at all so dont try to act like they will spec insanse wispers its like saying that choppas spec get to the choppa

[Tesq]

Ok lests just clear this out of the way first; mara has and never will deal more pure dps than slayer and choppa to state otherwise is false

now tesq, im not sure if your aware or not but this is how maras spaec:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :5194:5204:

no points are ever put into monstro unless you plan on using the class for pve or have never played the class at all so dont try to act like they will spec insanse wispers its like saying that choppas spec get to the choppa

i have a mara and exatly why mara do not spec into mostro i suggest to move there PB so that you need to waste 7 point to get it and need to choose between pb and heal drain +50% heal debuff.

pb or +25% to heal debuff / 50% heal drain + armor debuff


you cant have all dam... We cannot ask for a slayer aoe nerf if mara can do in his best rotation more damage than slayer choppa and beinf durable like a tank due to heal drain, you need to CHOOSE, i 'dont care if he have less burst mara not suppose to do that ammount of damage.

[Coryphaus]

what if it was just the leech heal tied to deadly clutch? and mara got 50% base hdebuff on tainted claw?

[Tesq]

what if it was just the leech heal tied to deadly clutch? and mara got 50% base hdebuff on tainted claw?

cannot do with out change the client.......it was told xniuwt97826 time, unless you wanna have problem with client or total incorrect tooltips.

[Coryphaus]

what if it was just the leech heal tied to deadly clutch? and mara got 50% base hdebuff on tainted claw?

cannot do with out change the client.......it was told xniuwt97826 time, unless you wanna have problem with client or total incorrect tooltips.

gotcha

the problem is that pb on monstro "makes no sense"

what if it was 11 point tactic on brut insted of unstable convulsions? and isnted of 50, 25 or something?

[Tesq]

would change nothing , you can still take evrything and only loose drawing swipe that is just a bad skill for me in a mara rotation since tanks can also remove ap and his base damage is low. And your rotation should use the higest dps value x skill; also if you remove something from path and make it core, mara just don't lose nothing cos he have even more poin't to spend over his masterys, the only way it's to spread tactics over all paths but since hp drain tactic is bound to a skill of that mastery we cannot move it, mostro path have all dedicated tactics and skills exept that one i suggest to swap, in the end with that change mara would have all his tool but he will have to choose

survability vs damage that's it what a balanced class should choose to have and also have 2 viable good build, rather than 1 broken build.
I can accept other viable set up but not that i get tell mara is fine buff choppa/wl. Cos both slayer and mara need to be toned down.


you cannot put it on 3 point cos it would be too strong as t2 tactic.

[foof]

An issue is who said the Mara/WL are the "anti-kiter MDPS" they never were that by design, the WL just excels at it because of Pounce. They are the "brawler" MDPS classes, supposed to have medium armor, good damage (but not as much as the other MDPS clases), and good utility. Unlike the "Assassin" grouping that has light armor, high burst damage, and stealth, and the "Bezerker" grouping that has med armor but sacrifices that for very high damage. Outside of TE that Marauder is hardly an "anti-kiting DPS".

They really don't show that many anti-healer tools. The WL easiest has the worst heal debuff out of any MDPS class, the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot to get a 50% heal debuff. They actually have the worst heal debuffs out of all the MDPS classes. How am I supposed to take you seriously when you make statements like that?

Your rotations don't make any sense whatsoever and show a complete lack of misunderstanding of how the class works.

Anyway, as I said earlier, taking the heal drain out of the DC tactic would be a change that could nerf the Marauder without making them bad, but the overall point here is why shouldn't a Marauder have tools to kill people? They aren't tanks here, and people really over-estimate their utility without their damage. Wow, a wounds debuff, an armor debuff, and a heal debuff, + damage!

The Marauder doesn't need significant nerfs though, and I've explained in this thread numerous times. The WL needs buffs, as does the Choppa.

"your rotation make any sense "where i had wrote any rotation sy?

.......

let's start from what you said , as you said "Brawler" if wl/mara have to behaviour like this, you don't think even a little that mara need a nerf? i mean i am ok to make him able to choose if act more like a brawler or more like a berserk like you said but being both.... camon

mara need a nerf, your estimation that mara dont need a nerf show as you never play against it

mara st do more damage than choppa/slayer so this is very wrong The fact that you can kill something alone is the very reason why something need a nerf you should not be able to easy kill nothing guarded in this game.
.


mara wl dont' have anti healer tools?

mara:

deadly cluth
touch of instability
insane whisper ( the onnly thta need to be spec)
mount of tzeench

wl

silence
50% outcoming heal debuff
punce itself.

the set of these skills exist to use them against healers, while wl can be not on top of his role he dosen't stand in a wrong role lime mara, mara can arm both push on healer like Wl could but he can also do more damage than choppa/slayer that is wrong.

Simply put, I'm done with trying to have a logical discussion with you because it is apparently clear you don't know what you are talking about.

Having a high post count does not mean you know what you are talking about, nor does it mean that the content of your posts is good.

You act like any Marauder is going to spec Insane Whispers? LOL? And you act like Touch of Instability is some kind of good "anti-healer tool" (it doesn't scale, its absolutely terrible damage). It is extremely clear you don't really know much about the Marauder class, how it works, what i can do, and what fixes it may need. Your suggestions to fix the class are essentially to nerf it down to where it can't play as a viable MDPS anymore. Hurr durr you have to choose between damage and utility, but other MDPS won't have to! You think that the Marauder does better damage than the Slayer and Choppa, thats absolutely, 100% wrong and shows a funadmental misunderstanding of how this game works, etc...

And when you compare classes, try not to be so biased in the future. You list all of the Marauders "anti-heal" tools (two of which are pure garabge), and not all the WLs. As I stated before, the Marauder does not have a good amount of anti-healing tools. In fact, it doesn't even have that good tools in compared to other MDPS classes.

1. Tainted Claw/Deadly Clutch - To get a 50% heal debuff like the Choppa, Slayer, WH, and WE, the Marauder NEEDS TO SPEND A TACTIC SLOT THAT THEY DON'T. THATS A BAD THING. This means that Choppas/Slayers/WH/and WE already are more anti-healer than a Marauder, as they can run full dps tactics AND have a 50% healing debuff.

2. Touch of Instability IS NOT WORTH A GCD OUTSIDE OF T2. ITS A HORRIBLE ABILITY THAT HAS NO SCALING.

3. Insane Whispers is a garabge tactic that isn't any good, is 7 points up the Marauders worst path, and nobody would ever slot because its horrible.

4. Mouth of Tzeentch is ok. It's an AoE interrupt. You can't use it while you are in DPS stance.

That realistically means that the Marauders "anti-healer tools" are TWO ABILITIES, ONE OF WHICH NEEDS A TACTIC EQUIPPED AND SPECED FOR TO BE EQUAL TO WHAT OTHER MDPS CAN DO.

Marauders are not "anti-healer DPS", you do not know what you are talking about.

Lets compare other MDPS as anti-healers shall we?

Slayer;

1. Has a 50% incoming heal debuff that doesn't require a tactic slot used.
2. Has a core knockdown.
3. Has Inevitable Doom.

= Slayer is already a better anti-healer than Marauder.

Choppa;

1. Has a 50% incoming heal debuff that doesn't require a tactic slot.
2. Has a core knockdown.
3. Has a 50% outgoing heal debuff.
(Has some other tools like Tired Already? that are of questionable use).

= Choppa is already a better anti-healer than Marauder.

Do I need to go into the rest of the MDPS classes or can we leave it at that? If the WL had an incoming healing debuff instead of an outgoing, they'd be 10 times better anti-healer than Marauders, but they don't (yet).

[foof]

Ok lests just clear this out of the way first; mara has and never will deal more pure dps than slayer and choppa to state otherwise is false

now tesq, im not sure if your aware or not but this is how maras spaec:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :5194:5204:

no points are ever put into monstro unless you plan on using the class for pve or have never played the class at all so dont try to act like they will spec insanse wispers its like saying that choppas spec get to the choppa

i have a mara and exatly why mara do not spec into mostro i suggest to move there PB so that you need to waste 7 point to get it and need to choose between pb and heal drain +50% heal debuff.

pb or +25% to heal debuff / 50% heal drain + armor debuff


you cant have all dam... We cannot ask for a slayer aoe nerf if mara can do in his best rotation more damage than slayer choppa and beinf durable like a tank due to heal drain, you need to CHOOSE, i 'dont care if he have less burst mara not suppose to do that ammount of damage.

The problem with your ideas is that they are based on false/bad premises.

Marauders do not "have it all", they can do something very specific, which is: Deal decent single target damage, while debuffing armor, heals, and wounds. Nothing else they do is special (outside of TE), or > any other MDPS.

Marauders DO NOT DO MORE DAMAGE THAN SLAYERS OR CHOPPAS. I don't know where you got this in your head but it is wrong and makes no sense. All you have to do is you know, a little bit of math to figure this out.

Marauders ARE NOT DURABLE AS TANKS. THE HEAL DRAIN IS WAY OVERRATED AND I WROTE ABOUT THIS EARLIER IN THE THREAD. You are getting 50% of 50% debuffed heals = 25% of the total HPS of the target. If that target is dying because you are healing debuff him, you get very little heals. If he isn't dying? You aren't killing anything and are leeching a little bit of the overhealing. Overall, Marauders are nowhere near tank level durability.

The Marauder IS supposed to do that amount of damage. IT IS AN MDPS CLASS. It has the most restrictive MDPS mechanic, the debuffs are highly overrated and many other MDPS clases have significant CC/Debuffs as well, it does terrible AoE damage, and it really can only do one thing (decent damage and decent debuffs). If you take the Marauders damage away you get the old Marauders we had for 3 years, a bad class whose only purpose is as a pull and armor/heal debuff bot.

You do not know what you are talking about. This is extremely clear. Yes, we should ruin the Marauder class using your bad ideas because you don't know how to balance properly. Please, until you stop thinking that the Marauder > the Slayer/Choppa in damage you need to educate yourself.

[Ungrin]

An issue is who said the Mara/WL are the "anti-kiter MDPS" they never were that by design, the WL just excels at it because of Pounce. They are the "brawler" MDPS classes, supposed to have medium armor, good damage (but not as much as the other MDPS clases), and good utility. Unlike the "Assassin" grouping that has light armor, high burst damage, and stealth, and the "Bezerker" grouping that has med armor but sacrifices that for very high damage. Outside of TE that Marauder is hardly an "anti-kiting DPS".

They really don't show that many anti-healer tools. The WL easiest has the worst heal debuff out of any MDPS class, the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot to get a 50% heal debuff. They actually have the worst heal debuffs out of all the MDPS classes. How am I supposed to take you seriously when you make statements like that?

Your rotations don't make any sense whatsoever and show a complete lack of misunderstanding of how the class works.

Anyway, as I said earlier, taking the heal drain out of the DC tactic would be a change that could nerf the Marauder without making them bad, but the overall point here is why shouldn't a Marauder have tools to kill people? They aren't tanks here, and people really over-estimate their utility without their damage. Wow, a wounds debuff, an armor debuff, and a heal debuff, + damage!

The Marauder doesn't need significant nerfs though, and I've explained in this thread numerous times. The WL needs buffs, as does the Choppa.

"your rotation make any sense "where i had wrote any rotation sy?

.......

let's start from what you said , as you said "Brawler" if wl/mara have to behaviour like this, you don't think even a little that mara need a nerf? i mean i am ok to make him able to choose if act more like a brawler or more like a berserk like you said but being both.... camon

mara need a nerf, your estimation that mara dont need a nerf show as you never play against it

mara st do more damage than choppa/slayer so this is very wrong The fact that you can kill something alone is the very reason why something need a nerf you should not be able to easy kill nothing guarded in this game.
.


mara wl dont' have anti healer tools?

mara:

deadly cluth
touch of instability
insane whisper ( the onnly thta need to be spec)
mount of tzeench

wl

silence
50% outcoming heal debuff
punce itself.

the set of these skills exist to use them against healers, while wl can be not on top of his role he dosen't stand in a wrong role lime mara, mara can arm both push on healer like Wl could but he can also do more damage than choppa/slayer that is wrong.

Learn to play Chosen before you even comment on another class please. Marauder will never out damage Slayer or Choppa.

You clearly never played on live. Ever.

[Ungrin]

Ok lests just clear this out of the way first; mara has and never will deal more pure dps than slayer and choppa to state otherwise is false

now tesq, im not sure if your aware or not but this is how maras spaec:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :5194:5204:

no points are ever put into monstro unless you plan on using the class for pve or have never played the class at all so dont try to act like they will spec insanse wispers its like saying that choppas spec get to the choppa

A marauder will kill you faster than a Choppa or slayer ever would. That's like saying because the slayer is putting out more fluff damage that he is doing more damage. This simply isn't true. It's the reason why Marauders were one of the most played DPS on live.

You can't tell me that it's simply "not true." I've played 100 a marauder and a 100 Slayer and a 100 choppa. Those 2 are nowhere near a Marauder. A marauder's wounds debuff will make short work of you and in t2 it's near OP. Put me on a fully geared marauder and you will take every word you said back.