Magus fix

[Mishas]

I mentioned sustain once, to describe the hybrid's strength, not as benchmark a magus needs to match. That's not the same as making sustain part of my argument, and it doesn't touch my actual point: similar gameplay pattern doesn't establish similar output or capability.

Saying "yes they're not the same class, but gameplay is similar, hence comparison" a third time doesn't answer why pattern similarity should mean capability parity. That's the actual question you keep skipping.

Well, you may think I haven´t answered but I really did. Same type of damage, similar type of gameplay (mainly dot based RDPS), similar access to CCs (given that you can just apply 1 of each and they all have access to snares). Is the dps output different? Well yeah, given that we are talking about healers vs a dps class I think that it is justified that a dps would have bigger output and the healer bigger sustain.

So once again, what is the point you are trying to make here? That all the variables are not the same? Obviously not.
The reason why I brought the comparison up is because in terms of gameplay there are more similarities than differences. Just compare videos of these healers roaming to one of a Magus and you can clearly see what I mean.

On cleanse: "healers playing well and using few resources" and "cleanse spend proves threat" aren't mutually exclusive, a class can be dangerous enough to require exactly that kind of efficient response.

You're also asking me to compare it to how hard it is to do the same to an MDPS, but you haven't actually shown MDPS require proportionally more resources either, that's asserted, not demonstrated.

And "ask healers how afraid they are of a magus" is anecdotal, not evidence. If you've got parses or real numbers behind the "100% more effective" claim, or behind the idea that MDPS take comparatively more resources to shut down, i'd actually like to see them, that would settle this properly instead of anecdotes on either side.

Let me see if I get this right. The thread opener and every other person in the thread (including you) can just dump their claims/statements/opinions here but I have to be the one providing spreadsheets of data to prove/demonstrate/backup mine? xD
It is funny how every argument I make is either "asserted, not demonstrated" or "anecdotal, not evidence". The same could be said about yours I think xD.

If you want my reason/opinion on why MDPS are stonger/effective/bigger threats than rangeds atm here it is: Tanks and MDPS have far greater sinergy. Everything is easier (assisting, coordinating...). For me, that is one of the more basic reasons.
Yes, I know that I probably have opened another can of worms with this statement but hey, you are asking for it.

On facts vs opinions: sure, everything is technically an opinion, that's not what i said. The point was that you stated "100% more effective" and "goes down the toilet" with total confidence, then called a similar type of claim "obviously just an opinion" a few posts later.

That's not a philosophical point about the nature of opinions, that's an inconsistency in how confidently you present your own claims depending on which one you're making.

I think I have been pretty consistent on how I present my arguments. However, I have been trying to make an effort on remarking that I am just stating my opinions in the last posts because it seems that it was not obvious enough.
Regarding the statements that you highlighted, I stand by my initial claim. I really believe that classes with access to strong Heal Debuffs are 100% more effective than those who do not. 50% incoming/outgoing debuffs are huge. A group without them is 100% less effective on their output. Simple math, in my opinion. As for the "goes down the toilet" is simple. If one of the strengths of you class is access to a wide variety of CCs but they share the same inmunities not only among themselves but with other group members, the claim is easily understood.

On the solo/small/big scale framework, this is the first time you've laid this out clearly, and i don't disagree with the general shape of it. But your "never top of any group content" claim doesn't actually fit your own model.

If power gradually decreases with scale like you're describing, that leaves room for the magus to still be competitive at small scale, just less dominant than solo.

Your "never top of any group content" is a much flatter, more absolute claim than the gradual scaling model you just laid out, so which one is it: gradual decline, or never competitive at all?

From my perspetive, one is the consecuence of the other. If the class gradually loses power/effectiveness then at some point other classes become better choice. In my opinion this makes the class in its current state not able to compete with other dps.

This decline does not just happen with CCs and inmunities. When a good chunk of your damage comes from DoTs that means that there is a point where the DoT become too slow in compasison with classes that have more direct damage output. Another constraint is the pet. Having to constantly spend gdcs + aps on repositioning it at some point becomes a waste in comparison to what other classes bring to the table. When you put all together is just too much, in my opinion

[Mishas]

? You just conceded the whole argument without realizing it.

You're proposing giving the magus a heal debuff and avoidance changes in exchange for less burst. That's not a neutral quality of life wishlist, is it? That's you admitting the burst is disproportionate to what a balanced group kit should carry. Pick one: "the burst isn't the problem" or "I'd trade the burst away." You can't argue both in the same post. One undercuts the other.

On "fluff damage getting countered by healing output" in XvsX, that's true of literally every DPS class against healers, not something specific to a magus. If that logic exempted the magus from scrutiny, it would exempt every burst class from scrutiny, and then nobody could discuss ST tuning for anything.

You also point out we drifted from solo/pug fights into structured premades, then use "magus isn't picked in real premades" as your evidence. But that's a different population than what this thread started on. If solo and pub small scale is where the complaints are coming from, pointing at optimized premade comp doesn't address that, it just changes which context gets measured.

And "use your common sense" for "never top of any group content" doesn't hold up any better than "obviously just an opinion, not a fact" did for your small scale claim, you're just choosing to hedge one and assert the other with confidence. I'm not asking you to have parses for everything, i'm pointing out the double standard in how you present your own claims.

Your actual position, stripped of the hedging, is: the magus dominates solo, and that's fine because it's supposedly bad in groups. That's a trade off argument, not a "magus isn't overtuned" argument. Argue that version honestly and we can actually get somewhere.

Not at all.

When I make such argument is not that I am stating that Magus has too much burst. What I tried to say is that there are other more important factors that affect the effectiveness of a Magus as a DPS other than its burst output.

The fluff argument came by because there are classes that when you look at the basic scoreboards they seem impresive in terms of dps. However, when looking more closely you can often realize which one are actually carrying the weight and doing the real killing.

Regarding premades, the thread opened mention small scale and yourself pointed out small scale as 6vs6 and 12vs12. Are not premades usually build for such content? Are we pretending we are talking about pug vs pug only?

Since you want to clarify my position here it is:

- Magus is strong solo roamer yes but its not the only one. I consider magical DPS healers (AM/SH, RP/ZEAL) a good example of this. If there are complaints about Magus, why not about the other ones as well?
- In terms of ST damage the class is definitely underperforming. Maybe not in numbers but in effectiveness. Yes, its strong in solo roaming or against groups without healers but when balanced groups appear, Magus loses all its shinny very quickly. Its obviously a clue that something is not properly balanced.

[nocturnalguest]

However i dont get one particular thing, if some has issues with its "burst" in solo roam specifically then its the easiest thing to get real numbers on.

Burst and sustain of Magi is very high vs a single target not stacked with disrupt/block, it was already high before they nerfed resistance liniment and auras/buffs.

The solos videos i believe were pre- nerf, but feel free to check the date on that resistance nerf patch which indirectly buffed Magus and nerfed classes like shaman/am.

But again, Burst does not exist in isolation, one has to consider all the things.

Oh, of course, I agree, burst doesn't go in isolation, have to consider all the kit magus has. Mentioning resists st/aoe adjustments is on spot as well.

However, there is no change that drastically boost magus solo performance, only some minor tweaks not changing a grand scheme of things. They are same monstrosity as before for solo roaming, arguably one of the strongest duelists in game.

But! Their st burst in solo roaming is nothing special at all, if someone do BiS test on real rotation without cheesing it 3 seconds burst wont exceed ~5-6k (we talk solo roaming rotation resembling realistic one) if reach it even at all i suspect. So whats the issue with burst exactly? DPS RP/zealot/am/shaman gonna have same result, more or less. Hence i say that someone with bis solo roam magus could publish real numbers already, takes not more than 10 minutes.

Also Mishas post is on spot too, ST burst of magus not justify a class a spot in any serious party composition. Its lacking. You can cheese construct for insane numbers but you simply can't play like that in real game.

Also anyone could just open scoreboard, check Teefz performance on SH and his performance on magus. Situation is clear as day