Return of Reckoning

Luth wrote:

Coryphaus wrote:

Luth wrote:
Srsly, both classes (but the SM in particular) make the impression if they rushed it in the alpha and never touched the class again...

then what does that make wl?

WL need some adjustments too, but this is for another thread imo.
The problem with the WL is, that almost everything has to be done very carefully.
A good start would it be to remove/alter the two pointless aggro reduce tactics in the paths to something usefull and even more important, change the outgoing healdebuff into an incoming one.

It would be really easy to overbuff the WL, because of his potential as a (maybe the best) front loaded burst class in the game and his superiour mobility.
e.g. simply handing out all mara stuff would create a monster, similiar (or even worse) to what mythic did when they raised the damage potential of the mara without removing 1-2 of the important debuffs.

i was just trying to make a joke but you make some good points

the problem is now that az mentioned it, is we cant just go straight up thery craft and make suggestions anymore till we know what exactly or how the other devs besides az envision the late game then we can craft suggestions based on those confines

It's been mentioned internally that balancing discussions will take place on the open forum now, where everyone can respond to points made. The internal chat is not uniquely composed of devs - we're not even the majority in there.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I consider useless skills of any kind to be valid for a buff, no matter what class they're on and no matter whether anyone else cares about them or not.

Azarael wrote:I consider useless skills of any kind to be valid for a buff

Agreed.

Anyway, it saddens me a little that our/your suggestions might not make it in the near future. Hopefully one day you guys can bring balance to the game. Balance as in, all classes are welcome in a 6-man.

Just last night on order chat some guy was trying to form a group. I said something on advice (about something else) and he invited me, but i refused. Then he went on looking for people, saying "no SMs or xxxx (can`t remember what other class he mentioned, probly AM). I told him "but you just invited me and i'm a SM". His reply was "i thought you were on your SW" (i deleted my SW and created a SM with the same name so that probly confuses some people).

Maybe it would be possible to take baby-steps on these changes. Moving the KDs from 14 to 10 points would do a lot for both SM and BO.

regarding the war bellow ( da toughest included) there is a tactic (you got nothing) that allow group memebers to be healed for a certain amount everytime a war bellow trigger , why not buff that tactics a lil bit , so you wont have to make "da toughest" a group ability since the tactic will allow people around you (100 feet i think) to be healed . (maybe buff the healing amount a little bit) .

Was just my 2 cents

Azarael wrote:Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I consider useless skills of any kind to be valid for a buff, no matter what class they're on and no matter whether anyone else cares about them or not.

Then while we're on the subject, something really needs to be done about Phoenix Wing (Khaine - Rank 9 ability). It's god awful, and has always seen zero use in PvE or PvP. If we're moving abilities around, can we possibly replace some functionality with Phoenix Wing?

I disagree with making Redirected Force a knockback, if Crashing Wave is getting moved to 9pts. That means that the SM would lose the interrupt and block% buff. Put those on Redirected Force instead, and that's ok.

Penril wrote:

Azarael wrote:I consider useless skills of any kind to be valid for a buff

Agreed.

Anyway, it saddens me a little that our/your suggestions might not make it in the near future. Hopefully one day you guys can bring balance to the game. Balance as in, all classes are welcome in a 6-man.

Just last night on order chat some guy was trying to form a group. I said something on advice (about something else) and he invited me, but i refused. Then he went on looking for people, saying "no SMs or xxxx (can`t remember what other class he mentioned, probly AM). I told him "but you just invited me and i'm a SM". His reply was "i thought you were on your SW" (i deleted my SW and created a SM with the same name so that probly confuses some people).

Maybe it would be possible to take baby-steps on these changes. Moving the KDs from 14 to 10 points would do a lot for both SM and BO.

On destro side im dont sure but we have no problem for BO our debuff statistic are really usefull on 6 man put 1 BG on main tank for buff str tough single target and you got a solid base.

I disagree with making Redirected Force a knockback, if Crashing Wave is getting moved to 9pts. That means that the SM would lose the interrupt and block% buff. Put those on Redirected Force instead, and that's ok.

I would have suggested either dropping CA to 5pts and empowering RF, or making CA a group buff.

And yes, P'W is crap. The RoR version deals Spirit damage and has no 5ft requirement, and it's still crap.

Azarael wrote: Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I consider useless skills of any kind to be valid for a buff, no matter what class they're on and no matter whether anyone else cares about them or not.

Words of wisdom.

Fey Illusion for WL is a good ability candidate for a change, I realize this is SM/BO but indulge meh.

Move the 7 point spec tactic in axemen Threatening Distraction onto Fey Illusion replacing enemy monsters are confused bull ****. Incidentally as an old Mana Ment from Daoc I can attest as to how worthless confusion in an MMO is. You cause 75% less hatred in enemy monsters and make it last like 30 seconds because it still sucks. Move pack synergy to spec, and don't require a pet out so WL have 50% increased crit damage like mauraders, and in the same slot no less. Then make the base tactic into something useful, I'm not sure mdps ain't my main thing.

I think an easy start is to make bellows/blade dances proc on both attack and defense. Should be easy to implement certain ones act differently now.

As the ostensible debuff tanks I would also like to look at the remove enchantment abilities native to every tank. Possibly consider having it remove one of two effects as healers cleanse abilities work. If you have some skilled people you could consider even a buff steal mechanic giving the other faction access to buffs that they don't even have. Think of even including a high spec tactic that allowed you to proc steal tactic affects. Give that sort of thing to great-weapon wielders and watch the craziness.

This ended up hitting a wall in the internal chats, because nobody agrees on what should actually be done there. Everyone has their own idea of the T4 metagame. Additionally, there are objections to buffing BO, which leaves this idea completely screwed - adjusting SM without adjusting BO will cause a tsunami of


This is very frustrating to hear. Especially because when players such as, Penril, Mistgun, Cor and Az to name a few from the previous discussions, who clearly demonstrate a deep understanding of the classes abilities, tactics masteries and where they sit compared to other classes, develop well balanced changes that people agree with arn't given the light of day because of someone else's agenda.

It is beyond me that people chose to shut down well thought out changes to this game / classes which would seek to bring the classes in-line with each other and see them played in parties and warbands like their other tank counter parts rather than being left on the sidelines like they were on live. I pose the question then, is this then the way all balance changes will go, with them hitting a wall? If so what is the point?

Could these people on the internal side not read this thread and others to see that these changes are not game breaking or rushed but well debated and discussed?
Surely the evidence here is clear to support the arguments for change and if the internal critics chose to read it or brought their opinions of the games meta and direction then at least discussions can me more open and transparent. Thus allowing the community of players who clearly have a level head and an in-depth understand of mechanics and classes can work together and progress this game forward with balance changes the community wants to see and is in-line with overall direction of the private server's inner circle?