Return of Reckoning

Endari wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 6:32 am the melee heal that is affected by parry, block, dodge, toughness, absorb, armor, line of sight, detaunt, interrupt, knockdown, punt, disarm and range(both to close and to far) also needs to be affected by heal debuffs?

Everything is affected by things you listed, and nope not one Melee heal is affected by any Dodge, or Armor if you are Dps dok/Wp (only have spirit damage melee heals) Detaunt is Heal Debuff for Melee heals. Shield needs to be removed from dok/wp i mean things like this are insanity RoR.builders - Warrior Priest You already have block+ Sigmards Radiance/Transfer Essence which are Only AP using Melee GRPHEAL that returns your resourses as well... If not remove shield then remove "if using shield then Divine strike hits 3 targets" Just change it to " Melee Heals increased by 25% + Divine Strike hits 2 extra targets"

And if no shield removal then remove shield requirement from transfer essence/sigmars radiance, if you dont then dps dok/wp mostly will be a nuissance for your team.

I mean WHY can you have block and ALL THE HIGHEST HEALS ON TOP OF THAT? It worked great for 15yrs that you need to do DMG to Heal not just hit someone and get insane heals with 0 drawbacks. Dps dok/wp Dont need Charge, Never did. But we Need to have our base kit back, theres no reason to restrict skills behind shield or 2h/dualwield.

vanbuinen77 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 3:58 am Melee healers can have a gap closer when lifetaps are affected by heal debuffs.

They are already affected, just by a different heal debuffs. For example, parry m1 is 100% heal debuff for 7 sec- which is how I used to kill dps wps back when I was playing WE, build morale to m1 then 7 sec of them having no healing- burst.

Zxul wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:42 pm Order has 2 ranged KDs (sw + bw), destro has non. For that matter, bw also has a heal debuff, which sorc doesn't has. Order has the same LTC. Order has a class with a pull + pounce + high frontal burst- wl, destro has nothing even close. Making stuff up, as you do, is indeed not a good look.

I apologize if my bluntness comes as impolite, the intent is not to offend but to be succinct.

This is incorrect on two accounts.

1) Technical

Order has 3 ranged KDs: SW, BW, and WH (Dragongun) Destro has 1: WE (On your Knees)

2) Practical

It's important to take a look at the function of each tool in addition to its literal description. The whole point of the ranged K/D is to 1: CC the target 2: function as a gap closer. From this angle, the Mara's (and WL's) pull fulfil the function of a ranged K/D, and to far greater effect. It instantly closes the distance, gives a different immunity, and leaves the target vulnerable to follow up CC, whether it be a melee K/D or snare. For all intents and purposes, you can place the Mara/WL pull into a "ranged K/D."

Additionally, both pulls are core abilities to their classes and do not require a specific spec; therefore, they are more available on the battlefield compared to the abilities that require a specific. This is anecdotal/speculative as I have no data, but I'd wager that the amount of pulls used by either the Mara OR WL dwarves the total usage of the other ranged K/Ds.

*BREAK*

Back to the actual topic of the post

I believe what Gargis has been trying to say across multiple posts is that after the snare changes (that affected both realms), Covenant of Celerity has taken on an increase in power. Previous to the snare changes, CoC was a mild buff, as the KOTBS' slice through and the SM's Wings of Heaven were order's "asymmetric" counter. These asymmetric counters no longer effectively exist. Furthermore, the BO gaining the ability to grant their party stun/snare immunity AND a charge, heightening CoC's potency. The BO grants their party the ability to ignore any frontline in order to quickly attack the backline AND CoC prevents the backline from escaping. When you add CoCs 20% snare and Linecracka's 30% speed buff, this maneuver occurs at mounted speeds. This a very potent 1-2 punch that, currently, has little (if any) counter play.

I'd also like to add my own point: the above combo works in reverse as well. This is just as potent of an offensive ability as it is a defensive/escape ability. It grants the ability to disengage at mounted speeds at will. It is very difficult for one side to pursue, even if the party/WB leader caught its opposition in a tactically disadvantageous position.

TL/DR: CoC is a very potent gap closer. CoC allows one side can lock down and kill more easily than the other can in addition to allows one side to escape at will.

destro have also acces to mutated energy a 100ft KD.

Brennika wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:31 am

Zxul wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:42 pm Order has 2 ranged KDs (sw + bw), destro has non. For that matter, bw also has a heal debuff, which sorc doesn't has. Order has the same LTC. Order has a class with a pull + pounce + high frontal burst- wl, destro has nothing even close. Making stuff up, as you do, is indeed not a good look.

I apologize if my bluntness comes as impolite, the intent is not to offend but to be succinct.

This is incorrect on two accounts.

1) Technical

Order has 3 ranged KDs: SW, BW, and WH (Dragongun) Destro has 1: WE (On your Knees)

Actually, wrong. Using Dragongun/OYK requires class points, which WE can only get in melee- so OYK can't be countered as ranged KD. From other hand, WH can get class points using Burn Armor without getting into melee- meaning, per your logic order has 3 ranged KDs, while destro has non.

Brennika wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:31 am 2) Practical

It's important to take a look at the function of each tool in addition to its literal description. The whole point of the ranged K/D is to 1: CC the target 2: function as a gap closer. From this angle, the Mara's (and WL's) pull fulfil the function of a ranged K/D, and to far greater effect. It instantly closes the distance, gives a different immunity, and leaves the target vulnerable to follow up CC, whether it be a melee K/D or snare. For all intents and purposes, you can place the Mara/WL pull into a "ranged K/D."

Additionally, both pulls are core abilities to their classes and do not require a specific spec; therefore, they are more available on the battlefield compared to the abilities that require a specific. This is anecdotal/speculative as I have no data, but I'd wager that the amount of pulls used by either the Mara OR WL dwarves the total usage of the other ranged K/Ds.

And here is why it isn't, and you are just making things up. You can use abilities and pots during pull, like say detaunt/ aoe punt/ 50% dmg resistance (rp/zealot), unlike during KD. Also, wl/mara can't do dmg to you during pull (they are melee), while ranged classes with actual ranged KD very much can do dmg to you while you are in KD.

Brennika wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:31 am *BREAK*

Back to the actual topic of the post

Actual topic of this post is about WP not having a gap closer, so your next wall of text has nothing to do with the actual topic of the post.

Brennika wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:31 am I believe what Gargis has been trying to say across multiple posts is that after the snare changes (that affected both realms), Covenant of Celerity has taken on an increase in power. Previous to the snare changes, CoC was a mild buff, as the KOTBS' slice through and the SM's Wings of Heaven were order's "asymmetric" counter. These asymmetric counters no longer effectively exist. Furthermore, the BO gaining the ability to grant their party stun/snare immunity AND a charge, heightening CoC's potency. The BO grants their party the ability to ignore any frontline in order to quickly attack the backline AND CoC prevents the backline from escaping. When you add CoCs 20% snare and Linecracka's 30% speed buff, this maneuver occurs at mounted speeds. This a very potent 1-2 punch that, currently, has little (if any) counter play.

I'd also like to add my own point: the above combo works in reverse as well. This is just as potent of an offensive ability as it is a defensive/escape ability. It grants the ability to disengage at mounted speeds at will. It is very difficult for one side to pursue, even if the party/WB leader caught its opposition in a tactically disadvantageous position.

TL/DR: CoC is a very potent gap closer. CoC allows one side can lock down and kill more easily than the other can in addition to allows one side to escape at will.

Lets start from the fact that BO can't grunt their party a snare immunity. We's Bigger provides Unstoppable and Unmovable, those don't protect vs snares and don't remove snares /facepalm.

Sinisterror wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:32 am

Endari wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 6:32 am the melee heal that is affected by parry, block, dodge, toughness, absorb, armor, line of sight, detaunt, interrupt, knockdown, punt, disarm and range(both to close and to far) also needs to be affected by heal debuffs?

Everything is affected by things you listed, and nope not one Melee heal is affected by any Dodge, or Armor if you are Dps dok/Wp (only have spirit damage melee heals) Detaunt is Heal Debuff for Melee heals. Shield needs to be removed from dok/wp i mean things like this are insanity RoR.builders - Warrior Priest You already have block+ Sigmards Radiance/Transfer Essence which are Only AP using Melee GRPHEAL that returns your resourses as well... If not remove shield then remove "if using shield then Divine strike hits 3 targets" Just change it to " Melee Heals increased by 25% + Divine Strike hits 2 extra targets"

And if no shield removal then remove shield requirement from transfer essence/sigmars radiance, if you dont then dps dok/wp mostly will be a nuissance for your team.

I mean WHY can you have block and ALL THE HIGHEST HEALS ON TOP OF THAT? It worked great for 15yrs that you need to do DMG to Heal not just hit someone and get insane heals with 0 drawbacks. Dps dok/wp Dont need Charge, Never did. But we Need to have our base kit back, theres no reason to restrict skills behind shield or 2h/dualwield.

Yeah I am only talking about DPS WP/DoK, not that disgusting shield spec that I fully agree needs to be removed from the game.

Get vow from Crypts for snare proc, or use weight of Guilt snare + Endless guild AoE snare tactic. None of these are adequate. they are all you get.

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Actually, wrong. Using Dragongun/OYK requires class points, which WE can only get in melee- so OYK can't be countered as ranged KD. From other hand, WH can get class points using Burn Armor without getting into melee- meaning, per your logic order has 3 ranged KDs, while destro has non.

They're both still ranged K/Ds, along with Mutated Energy (which I forgot). ME is not a very practical skill, so it was easy to forget.

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
And here is why it isn't, and you are just making things up. You can use abilities and pots during pull, like say detaunt/ aoe punt/ 50% dmg resistance (rp/zealot), unlike during KD. Also, wl/mara can't do dmg to you during pull (they are melee), while ranged classes with actual ranged KD very much can do dmg to you while you are in KD.

Practical effects are very much a matter of opinion, and context of the ability use varies for each (1v1, scens, oRvR). For here I will have to agree to disagree with you; however, your opinion is as valid as mine.

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Lets start from the fact that BO can't grunt their party a snare immunity. We's Bigger provides Unstoppable and Unmovable, those don't protect vs snares and don't remove snares /facepalm.

100%, I misspoke and got ahead of myself. Tanks and Melee DPS provide their own snare immunity.

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Actual topic of this post is about WP not having a gap closer, so your next wall of text has nothing to do with the actual topic of the post.

Conversation shifted to how the mirror has a gap closer. Specifically, if the potency of Covenant of Celerity qualifies as one. I apologize if this was still too off topic, and I definitely apologize for the wall of text. I could have written less.

vanbuinen77 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 3:58 am Melee healers can have a gap closer when lifetaps are affected by heal debuffs.

I should have quoted this gentleman here. Neither should have one. Failing that, both should have one. Currently one has one (and a very potent one), while one does not.

Brennika wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:10 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Actually, wrong. Using Dragongun/OYK requires class points, which WE can only get in melee- so OYK can't be countered as ranged KD. From other hand, WH can get class points using Burn Armor without getting into melee- meaning, per your logic order has 3 ranged KDs, while destro has non.

They're both still ranged K/Ds, along with Mutated Energy (which I forgot). ME is not a very practical skill, so it was easy to forget.

No- ranged kd which requires first getting into melee range to be able to actually use it, isn't ranged.

Brennika wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:10 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
And here is why it isn't, and you are just making things up. You can use abilities and pots during pull, like say detaunt/ aoe punt/ 50% dmg resistance (rp/zealot), unlike during KD. Also, wl/mara can't do dmg to you during pull (they are melee), while ranged classes with actual ranged KD very much can do dmg to you while you are in KD.

Practical effects are very much a matter of opinion, and context of the ability use varies for each (1v1, scens, oRvR). For here I will have to agree to disagree with you; however, your opinion is as valid as mine.

No, it isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of facts- facts that you are wrong about.

Brennika wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:10 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Lets start from the fact that BO can't grunt their party a snare immunity. We's Bigger provides Unstoppable and Unmovable, those don't protect vs snares and don't remove snares /facepalm.

100%, I misspoke and got ahead of myself. Tanks and Melee DPS provide their own snare immunity.

So you entire long ass argument as based on you once again not knowing the facts, glad that we agree.

Brennika wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:10 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Actual topic of this post is about WP not having a gap closer, so your next wall of text has nothing to do with the actual topic of the post.

Conversation shifted to how the mirror has a gap closer. Specifically, if the potency of Covenant of Celerity qualifies as one. I apologize if this was still too off topic, and I definitely apologize for the wall of text. I could have written less.

The conversation didn't actually shift, there was one poster which tried to shift it, which you followed.

Brennika wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:10 am

vanbuinen77 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 3:58 am Melee healers can have a gap closer when lifetaps are affected by heal debuffs.

I should have quoted this gentleman here. Neither should have one. Failing that, both should have one. Currently one has one (and a very potent one), while one does not.

And as I replied, lifetaps are currently very much affected by heal debuffs, however the heal debuffs which affect them are different- parry/ disrupt per relevant, armor/ resists again per relevant, toughness, being out of range for melee lifetaps, etc. Every mdps has for example a 7 sec 100% heal debuff vs melee lifetaps which doesn't requires any speccing- m1, while the only 100% heal debuff vs regular heals is wh m4 which requires going all the way up the middle tree.

As for dok's "gap closer", as I said earlier- its a 20% proc for 20% snare for 5 sec, which in context of solo dok- which is what this thread is about- requires dok to run out of class resource just to try and apply it.

Zxul wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:40 pm
No- ranged kd which requires first getting into melee range to be able to actually use it, isn't ranged.

Does the ability K/D? Yes. Is the ability castable at range? Yes. Therefore, it is a *literal* ranged K/D. You can argue the effectiveness and practicality of the abilities due to the stipulations, but you cannot argue what they are *literal* ranged K/Ds.

Zxul wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:40 pm

Brennika wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 3:10 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:24 pm
Lets start from the fact that BO can't grunt their party a snare immunity. We's Bigger provides Unstoppable and Unmovable, those don't protect vs snares and don't remove snares /facepalm.

100%, I misspoke and got ahead of myself. Tanks and Melee DPS provide their own snare immunity.

So you entire long ass argument as based on you once again not knowing the facts, glad that we agree.

I got ahead of myself on one fact; however, the snare immunity + unstoppable + unmovable + charge + snare combo still exists. I simply forgot that you had to activate root break as well, and I concede that. The end point of the argument still stands, as this combo as little to no counterplay. If you know something that does counter this, I would love to learn! I find myself often the victim of my long-winded argument when I'm playing order. You seem very well-versed in game mechanics, and I don't mean this with any ounce of snark or sarcasm!

Zxul wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:40 pm
The conversation didn't actually shift, there was one poster which tried to shift it, which you followed.

As for dok's "gap closer", as I said earlier- its a 20% proc for 20% snare for 5 sec, which in context of solo dok- which is what this thread is about- requires dok to run out of class resource just to try and apply it.

Farrul wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 6:58 am
I always knew the mirror class, Dok had a very potent group snare ( celerity of covenant) yet failed to realize how gimped the WP is in this regard.

Not sure what else to add, speechless really.

You are right, the conversation didn't shift, it was always about the mirror having a gap closer and the WP not. Furthermore, the OP themself stated this was about group play NOT solo DoK. The DoK has a potent GROUP snare and the WP does not.

Zxul wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:40 pm
And as I replied, lifetaps are currently very much affected by heal debuffs, however the heal debuffs which affect them are different- parry/ disrupt per relevant, armor/ resists again per relevant, toughness, being out of range for melee lifetaps, etc. Every mdps has for example a 7 sec 100% heal debuff vs melee lifetaps which doesn't requires any speccing- m1, while the only 100% heal debuff vs regular heals is wh m4 which requires going all the way up the middle tree.
.

I am agreeing with your sentiment/logic; however, words matter. Lifetaps are not affected by *literal* heal debuffs, they are affected by anything that mitigates damage. This includes the inability to hit because of a gap, something a gap closer mitigates. I am agreeing with the gentlemen I quoted earlier, because melee heals should not have gap closers for as long as lifetaps are not affected by *literal* heal debuffs. Creating gaps are a part of the effective counterplay to melee heals, and gap mitigation should not be intrinsic to the melee heals toolkit. However, if they are to be part of the toolkit, both sides should have them.