Return of Reckoning

salazarn wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 3:11 pm So he has 700 weaponskill. That honestly seems too high. I have like 450 in sov, like 2 talismans and full rr expenditure on my WH.
Also the 1600 armor pen skill is unique to WL/mara and talented. 1K flat pen is more common.
Finally don't zealots get an additional flat 1k armor from a trait?

Seems like your actually misprepresenting the situation somewhat.

Having said that flat armor pen debuffs particular the mara WL ones are too strong imo but ironically ONLY if you have low armor. You're at 4k with trait which must place u north of 60% mitigation which is ABSURD for a clothie in an rpg.

Meanwhile my WH has 1800 armor with 4 sov rest triumph and armor pot. That's perhaps 42% mitigation. A 1600 debuff and like 100 wpnskill takes me to zero armor, and 42% additional damage taken. Thus making the effect of these skills far higher on a WH than on a zealot which will not be taken to zero.

700 ws isn't high for a slayer, 850 is quite possible.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=52423&p=549259#p549259

If by trait you mean a proc, zealot has a tactic (=costs 1 tactic slot and not free) for the zealot hot to have a 25% chance to buff armor by 1056 for 10 sec. Here is the fun part however- the proc doesn't stacks with the armor pot, so no zealot isn't getting 4 k armor.

salazarn wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 3:04 pm

Ysaran wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:25 am As healer I can tell you this: if you change the base healing I still would not invest in WP. My survivability take the precedence on the other players. And I bet the most other healer will do the same. The only thing you can achieve decreasing base healing is decreasing TTK.

Also note that though DPS are squishier than healer they have a lot more CC/mobility to compensate. Just compare WP and WL/WH. They also have core aoe detaunt. If a WH is dying, he can just detaunt and self punt. If a WP is dying he can only pray that his tank knows how to playl, or he is fked

Shamans dont have good mobility and cc? Id say maybe the best ingame after SH

Sure, shaman is in better place then other. But its mobile is still reactive, while the dps mobility is on demand. But the point is not shaman. Think about WP. What mobility does WP have? Same goes for CC

Caduceus wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:59 pm


The talismans made like a 6% difference in physical damage taken? I'd consider that quite significant, actually.

And consider that DPS get none of that. Nor do they get much defensive stats on their gear. So again, if you're making the point that healers have it rough, DPS should have it worse.



Let me answer with a question that will illustrate my point: what would happen if every DPS got their maximum burst for free, and was free to stack defensive stats without sacrificing any damage?


With that, I'll leave this discussion for now and may return to it later.

I really don't know what to say.. everything here is either incorrect or just something i disagree with from years of experience playing this game.

6% is hardly worth measuring, you need to measure the difference between damage you are taking in both setups, which just so happens to be 6.4% less damage taken in that situation. If you begin to understand this, then you begin to understand why armor is so strong. The correct way to build defense is to ensure you have enough EHP to survive a worst-case scenario and enough passive defense to make it so you and your healers can play comfortably. Some of that can be offset by positioning but Champ's Challenge exists, along with other things.

DPS get plenty of defense on gear. Parry, Dodge/Disrupt, anticrit, armor, wounds. Not sure at all what you mean by this? Just because Armor talis aren't considered meta for dps right now? (They're still very good, and at not much of a loss).

Your comparison makes no sense to me because healers don't get anywhere close to their maximum healing potential with things like armor talis and FS4. Do you mean having a well functioning build without going full glass? Every class in the game has that option. Almost all of my DPS are FS4, the BiS ones are 8-10k hp and some have quite a lot of Parry.

And it does make a difference. Healers who ignore defense heal for A LOT (Willpower has good scaling) and it can be almost impossible to kill their DPS even with a heal debuff, so the only option is to go kill the squishy healer. Then that group is in an unwinnable situation because their enemies' best win condition just so happens to be the biggest weakness in the group.

The same applies to DPS. Some Slayers in SR this season went for Weapon Skill or more Crit in Renown instead of Parry and some Futile. If they could stay in red, they were almost impossible to play against but they're so squishy that they can't really stay in red.

Anyways, it's been an interesting debate and I wish you the best of luck on your journey with your full Willpower Healer.

salazarn wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 3:11 pm

So he has 700 weaponskill. That honestly seems too high. I have like 450 in sov, like 2 talismans and full rr expenditure on my WH.
Also the 1600 armor pen skill is unique to WL/mara and talented. 1K flat pen is more common.
Finally don't zealots get an additional flat 1k armor from a trait?

Seems like your actually misprepresenting the situation somewhat.

No, but I understand your confusion. I said "How hard a non-glass cannon Slayer hits me with just a WL debuff". 700 WS and 10% armor pen is Slayer values. In fact, it's low. Slayers run upwards of 800 now and more pen with Annuli. You can plug in whatever numbers you like, my spreadsheet is available in my guide in the Resources section. Just File > Make a Copy.

Yes, Warping the Spirit is an extra almost 200 armor and 10% RedARP but it's not always up, you have to predict the go on you, hot yourself, and hope it procs in time, so it's worth knowing both sides.

Also my Zealot doesn't have exactly 3000 armor, but it's in the ballpark, I was just too tired yesterday to log in and get all the exact numbers.