Return of Reckoning

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:35 pm

Caduceus wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:13 am As someone with multiple rr80+ toons and probably thousands of hours played, I would actually confirm that the new player experience is broken. I cannot fault any new players for getting frustrated or quitting the game. If I didn't have my high renown toons and a strong team of players to play with, I would have 100% uninstalled by now. The game is unplayable otherwise.

I've talked about this issue a lot, but the main reason the game plays this way is because of the extraordinarily large defensive safety net provided by tanks and healers.

Putting this defensive safety net in place doesn't require much from the tanks and healers - they just need to press their buttons sensibly. To break through that same defensive safety net you need to execute very specific manoeuvres coordinated with your entire team and even then the margins to break through are incredibly small. Because of those tiny margins, small differences have a huge impact on whether or not a team is able to compete or not. One weak link in your team (team composition, gear level, player skill, etc.) is enough to be chanceless.

That's why scenarios in which one side doesn't score a single kill are so common.

This is not a healthy situation. Solutions might not be simple to find, but in my opinion it is up to the experienced players to get off their high horses and see how this situation is killing the new player influx, and thus stopping the game from developing a healthy playerbase.

In my opinion, either killing needs to be made easier, or tanking and healing needs to be a lot more of an active process in which players can make mistakes. Currently both roles (I've played both extensively) are very easy to play and keeping people protected is leagues easier than killing them as a DPS.

You have a very valid points here. You basically pinpoint the most crucial part of why this game is not newcomer friendly.

In a form what is considered competitive gameplay (6v6) anything is barely dying assuming teams are equally skilled because the burst window (the time when you can actually score a kill) is extremely tight, around 2-5 seconds you have to burst down focused target which requires alot of effort&synchronization from team, let alone a single party member.
In other form of what is considered competetive gameplay (24v24) things are a little bit better, cause at least something is dying but its barely possible to wipe the other team. Fights are absolutely endless because there are alot of ways to recover.

However i dont think its so hard to balance out. Why instead of what you propose just not increase some basic scalers&modifiers for all DPS classes and weapon DPS itself by ~20% as a starter point to test it out? We saw solo ranked matches then decent DPS guarded by decent tanks were dying thru guard cause other team had better composition and shield healer, is this the real goal - being able to kill not only in 2-5 seconds, but just by raw pressure? For me, why not. It's too complex at the moment for alot of people. 6men's that are heavily dominating other groups at very first and most important are doing their synchronized CC teamwork incredibly great, however it, of course, has nothing to do with random scenarios then things are explained with many other reasons.

Tanking and healing in this game is pretty cool i'd say. I wouldnt change that.

agemennon675 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 pm Killing through guard with just pressure is awful for the game, it requires no skill from the rest of the party and a few overperforming classes (hint: slayer) to execute. Simple, boring. Real talent is timing and syncronizing punt, kd on 2nd tank, healer stagger/silence and dps burst window at the same time as a party. That requires coordination not button smash and not that complicated for anyone that know immunities and few game mechanics

nocturnalguest wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:09 am

agemennon675 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 pm Killing through guard with just pressure is awful for the game, it requires no skill from the rest of the party and a few overperforming classes (hint: slayer) to execute. Simple, boring. Real talent is timing and syncronizing punt, kd on 2nd tank, healer stagger/silence and dps burst window at the same time as a party. That requires coordination not button smash and not that complicated for anyone that know immunities and few game mechanics

Well, fair enough, of course. However point made by Caduceus was the other thing - current game design is not noobfriendly at all and turns off alot of casual newcomers from other modern games (i guess casuals only cause i'd not call e.g. ESO or GW2 PvP easy), because they feel helpless and useless. The question is then, tho, do we need more casual population or not?
In regards to "not that complicated for anyone" here i disagree. There are few teams that totally dominating and difference between toptier 6mens and the others is really big, and its not about button smashing and knowing few game mechanics, comps or whatever, its about teamplay. To overcome it and work out same level of coordination one would need to form 6men and lose (and you definitely will, its impossible to just grab 6 good players and decently oppose e.g. Kar core group) to teams that are playing together for ages since live alot of times, thats pretty discouraging imo, hence you can only see sparrings in group ranked, sometimes even within same guild. Nobody wants to lose first 20-30 times (some more, some less, number is out of my ar*e) to gitgud, its no fun. Too much effort, it aint no esports. So by the time you will learn to punt/kd tanks, kd on focus target to prevent detaunt along with stagger/silence on healers synchronized in very narrow timestamp against ol' veteran teams who are expecting all that you most likely will have no groups to fight against at all. No motivation to play for toptier as they dont enjoy stomping same new teams, other new teams not forming because dont want to go thru all the stomping phase thus random people play sparrings with each other - is the current state of the scene.
So, to conclude, the real deal is does it needs to be like this or AoR/RoR should somehow meet modern casuality criteria of current PvP MMO's? ESO&GW2 as example, as a casual you will still do something PvP wise (yes, no chance to attend ESO 4x4 tournaments unless you do the same bloody path as in RoR but i speak generally), game design is way more enjoyable there for beginners, there is no feeling of absolute uselessness and helplessness like in RoR for them, in my opinion. Why? I think because reasons pointed out by Cadeceus - tanking&healing is strong, killing requires alot of coordination and teamplay, resulting in very low spectacularity of the gameplay (however actually playing good 6v6 fights is the best PvP experience currently possible in PvP MMO's i believe, its demanding, intense and cool).

Oh, and one more thing. Situation (pugs, premades, being stomped) is kinda helpless i suppose unless some design/balance swift, all those numerous whine posts on forums/ingame will not stop even if there would be alot of quality master "training" videos on youtube/twitch with voice comments of detailed step by step analysis of 6v6 matches or 24v24 GvGs (like in sc2 or any real esports game) cause all that is really required here in RoR to gitgud is playing with same (more or less) people over and over again to build coordination. Theory is simple here, but practice is pretty demanding. Taking out the feature of teamplay and coordination is definitely bad, how to adjust it properly is currently unknown, but if left as is there is no chance for population increase i believe.

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:12 am Oh I agree with you just not on killing through guard part.