Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

[GodlessCrom]

You could always just go play WoW now. It's almost more of a lobby ARPG than it is an MMO nowadays. Cross-server queuing doesnt help in that respect, as you lose that connection to your server community: why talk to your group, or care about them in anyway, when you will never see them again? Before that, reputation mattered to some extent: ninja looters and ragers were known server wide. I like random dungeon finder, because sometimes I just wanna pop in and do some dungeons. But, if not the cause of community degeneration, it was at least symptomatic of the problem. I think a lot of other choices were made that impacted the game far worse (effective removal of group quests, effective removal of world PvP, making professions basically useless, aforementioned cross-server nonsense, etc) but in combination with all of them, RDF helped fragment the community and soldified the "stay afk in lobby (aka this xpacs hub city) until queue pop" mentality which typifies wow to this day.

[Darosh]

Make an effort to educate yourself ~ at best before you throw temper tantrums, hint: personal perception is worth nothing, i.e.: make a point worth discussing.

I did. I specifically asked for any source that supports the claim that LFG had a horrendeous impact on the social atmosphere. You haven't even provided personal perception.

As for the tone of the post you really rub me the wrong way matie

I am on the sourcing, already dug something up - sadly its not the paper I'd like to you to read, tho' I might find that one, too.
Check back on this post by tomorrow, I'll make sure include the links to the papers in an edit (get used to my Abbd., its a habit I picked up back in university to mark stuff seperately, I won't ever get rid of it) - I am currently on a tablet at work, what makes handling .pdf and <properly> sourcing a bit tricky. I wish these papers were properly catalogued and stored, for once. >_<

Abbd.: A quick read, my apologies for the garbage link, it'll prompt a .pdf download - its nothing malicious.

The paper above is not the most elaborate but a good start, I have one paper in mind that goes on about the topic for ages. The references to other, related fields and mechanisms in these papers are always a good read, too. Tho' some might require you to have major'd in psychology to grasp the extent of things involved.

Abbd.: Another quick one (.pdf) - this touches the topic, iirc (its been a while since I've read it). The conclusion is essentially the same, however. Still not the paper I had in mind, mine does feature LFG tools specfically. >_<

Note: There are also quite many papers around that tackle player perception post-game experience, i.e.: The reason why player 'undersell' their playtime and why they left the games ~ lo and behold in 85% of cases it is due to community, rather than tech or game design issues. Will try and include those aswell, bear with me.

[lilsabin]

You could always just go play WoW now. It's almost more of a lobby ARPG than it is an MMO nowadays. Cross-server queuing doesnt help in that respect, as you lose that connection to your server community: why talk to your group, or care about them in anyway, when you will never see them again? Before that, reputation mattered to some extent: ninja looters and ragers were known server wide. I like random dungeon finder, because sometimes I just wanna pop in and do some dungeons. But, if not the cause of community degeneration, it was at least symptomatic of the problem. I think a lot of other choices were made that impacted the game far worse (effective removal of group quests, effective removal of world PvP, making professions basically useless, aforementioned cross-server nonsense, etc) but in combination with all of them, RDF helped fragment the community and soldified the "stay afk in lobby (aka this xpacs hub city) until queue pop" mentality which typifies wow to this day.

why talk to your group ? or care about them anyway ? ...because i only got 1 hour to play , and i cannot afford wasting 30 mins asking people how there family are doing ? and i am sorry , but other medium took care of the community things , for exemple facebook or youtube , let me give you some name well know to WoW community : swifty , bajheera , i even met PILAV in WAR and played with him ... Cross server realm and LFG only made thing easier and faster for people , cause you know , time is a luxury ( YES IT IS) , work 8 hours a day , got a wife and some side chicks , got children , and probably taking some courses at university to make your job better , gotta browse through forums , gotta watch and catch up with your favorites tv show AND YOU HAVE TO SLEEP , dood ... so PLZ TELL ME PERSONALLY , WHAT DO YOU WANT ? us to log in for 4 hours and chit chat about life while walking as a group to next dungeons , rvr lake or even sc / bg entrance ?

[GodlessCrom]

I am sure no one wants to spend 4 hours chit chatting about life with you, lilsabin. Others though, who knows? Mmorpgs as a genre are at least somewhat designed around social interaction, and playing for lengthier periods. If I want a quick 30 minute game, I will probably play something like cs:go or smite. Or a single player game. Also, I said I liked RDF.

[Darosh]

why talk to your group ? or care about them anyway ? ...because i only got 1 hour to play , and i cannot afford wasting 30 mins asking people how there family are doing ? and i am sorry , but other medium took care of the community things , for exemple facebook or youtube , let me give you some name well know to WoW community : swifty , bajheera , i even met PILAV in WAR and played with him ... Cross server realm and LFG only made thing easier and faster for people , cause you know , time is a luxury ( YES IT IS) , work 8 hours a day , got a wife and some side chicks , got children , and probably taking some courses at university to make your job better , gotta browse through forums , gotta watch and catch up with your favorites tv show AND YOU HAVE TO SLEEP , dood ... so PLZ TELL ME PERSONALLY , WHAT DO YOU WANT ? us to log in for 4 hours and chit chat about life while walking as a group to next dungeons , rvr lake or even sc / bg entrance ?

Games can be reduced to modern means of escapism ~ before our digital age, people vented their frustration with gossip and alike (boardgames, sports, pen and paper, art, yada yada); i.e.: social interaction - it is the most old-fashioned means by which mankind manages to keep its **** together and prevent individuals from snapping; ALL aspects of life once revolved around <proper> social interaction.

The best thing to compare (PvP centric) MMOs with: Sports. You either make an effort to join in on the fun and get onto the yard with the others, or decide to play for yourself somewhere else. The expectation to claim a part of the yard for yourself, and no one but yourself ultimately doesn't work out well for anyone. As is, lonewolves in MMOs are either the sad folk watching the cool kids play a game of sports from behind the fence, or the ones finding proper activities (skydiving, or whatever it is) ~ the latter don't expect anyone to make up for their own unwillingness or as unfair perceived treatment (Abbd.: which is often the case once feedback to x or y is being asked for).

TLDR: Misery seeks company, sharing shite expierences made in RL with people from all corners of the world greatly helps to cope with them. If you see that someone from Tibet can empathize and sympathize with you, **** doesn't look as dire anymore - even if you consciously couldn't care less, your subconsciousness cheers up.

Abbd.: Note:
Your regular "social media" (pff) is limited to an echochamber, i.e.: locally/regional or to the people you got to know before you learned about their at times 'nasty' opinions. Moreso it doesn't allow you to take a break from RL either, as you are constantly confronted with politics and other topics that tend to rile up people. Games completly cancel these things out, one doesn't log on to share ideologies or other nasty stuff. Smalltalk and so on develops gradually in games ~ the social interaction in games is unique in nature.

Imagine:
You play with someone for two years, establish a friendship and it suddenly turns out that you are vividly opposed to his RL view of the world.
You wouldn't care, at all - you got to know the person, so you will invetiably overcome the struggle ~ if not only by politely agreeing to disagree for the sake of killing gits/midgets.
Whereas, you get to know the opinion first, and the person second - if even - in RL, hence social interaction in games > social interaction in RL, in the way it is applied.

E: Words and stuff.

[Elemint]

The above articles and crom's post cemented my beliefs that DF was nothing more than a convenient tool misused which caused damage only when combined with server crossing because "You will never see these people again, so it doesn't matter"

[lilsabin]

Spoiler:

I am sure no one wants to spend 4 hours chit chatting about life with you, lilsabin. Others though, who knows? Mmorpgs as a genre are at least somewhat designed around social interaction, and playing for lengthier periods. If I want a quick 30 minute game, I will probably play something like cs:go or smite. Or a single player game. Also, I said I liked RDF.

so , you are really serious about spending 4 hours of your life in front of your computer on a game CHATTING ABOUT YOUR LIFE ? i might have missed a part of evolution

Am I talking to myself? Only warning, stop trying to troll people. - Torque

[lilsabin]

why talk to your group ? or care about them anyway ? ...because i only got 1 hour to play , and i cannot afford wasting 30 mins asking people how there family are doing ? and i am sorry , but other medium took care of the community things , for exemple facebook or youtube , let me give you some name well know to WoW community : swifty , bajheera , i even met PILAV in WAR and played with him ... Cross server realm and LFG only made thing easier and faster for people , cause you know , time is a luxury ( YES IT IS) , work 8 hours a day , got a wife and some side chicks , got children , and probably taking some courses at university to make your job better , gotta browse through forums , gotta watch and catch up with your favorites tv show AND YOU HAVE TO SLEEP , dood ... so PLZ TELL ME PERSONALLY , WHAT DO YOU WANT ? us to log in for 4 hours and chit chat about life while walking as a group to next dungeons , rvr lake or even sc / bg entrance ?

Games can be reduced to modern means of escapism ~ before our digital age, people vented their frustration with gossip and alike (boardgames, sports, pen and paper, art, yada yada); i.e.: social interaction - it is the most old-fashioned means by which mankind manages to keep its **** together and prevent individuals from snapping; ALL aspects of live once revolved around <proper> spcial interaction.

The best thing to compare (PvP centric) MMOs with: Sports. You either make an effort to join in on the fun and get onto the yard with the others, or decide to play for yourself somewhere else. The expectation to claim a part of the yard for yourself, and no one but yourself ultimately doesn't work out well for anyone. As is, lonewolves in MMOs are either the sad folk watching the cool kids play a game of sports from behind the fence, or the ones finding proper activities (skydiving, or whatever it is) ~ the latter don't expect anyone to make up for their own unwillingness or as unfair perceived treatment (Abbd.: which is often the case once feedback to x or y is being asked for).

TLDR: Misery seeks company, sharing shite expierences made in RL with people from all corners of the world greatly helps to cope with them. If you see that someone from Tibet can empathize and sympathize with you, **** doesn't look as dire anymore - even if you consciously couldn't care less, your subconsciousness cheers up.

Abbd.: Note:
Your regular "social media" (pff) is limited to an echochamber, i.e.: locally/regional or to the people you got to know before you learned about their at times 'nasty' opinions. Moreso it doesn't allow you to take a break from RL either, as you are constantly confronted with politics and other topics that tend to rile up people. Games completly cancel these things out, one doesn't log on to share ideologies or other nasty stuff. Smalltalk and so on develops gradually in games ~ the social interaction in games is unique in nature.

Imagine:
You play with someone for two years, establish a friendship and it suddenly turns out you are vividly opposed to his RL view of the world.
You wouldn't care, at all - you got to know the person, so you will invetiably overcome the struggle ~ if not only by politely agreeing to disagree for the sake of killing gits/midgets.
Whereas you get to know the opinion first, and the person second - if even - in RL, hence social interaction in games > social interaction in RL, in the way it is applied.

i think we are straying from the subject here , there is a difference between getting with people to do what we came to do (play , practice X sport) and get with people to exchange our opinion on X subject when we suppose to be playing or doing any precise activity . Thus the need of LFG and cross server thingy ... anyway , i am tired , as i said , i ll just sit and watch

[lilsabin]

scatterthewinds wrote:
getting to t4 too tedious. Dead lakes, slow pops, slow pve grinding since patch. Alt tab into a movie while you wait for a pop and then alt tab back to find you missed one and have quitter debuff. Go make dinner, look at time and see you have 1 hour before you need to sleep to wake up for work. Decide if you actually want to play/watch something else or sit around waiting for a pop. Alt-f4. Browse forum while watching movie.

Will just leave that here , and let "SOME" think about it ...

[GodlessCrom]

i might have missed a part of evolution

Spoiler: