[BG] Utility discussion

[Tesq]

uhm when i refered to an aoe heal debuff i meant to be incoming 25% just like chosen aura it should in fact take his place as heal debuff in wb fights and free chosen of 1 aura ( this is a good type of redundancy). As for the candidate for the heal debuff blade of ruin would be a better candidate if ppl really wanna get rid of it ( i alredy suggested this but got ignored).

I don't like change soul killer tactic beause it's a perfect mirror of IB and there are some things which should remain mirrored while other should be cross mirrored personaslly i would prefer the tactics to remain like it is. Is not that bad per se.ù

the good part of the % is that you can scale it, if 10% is too strong then it can be 5% of 7% but even if it's balanced it will still be better than a flat value. That's why i also said mirror this or that but nerfed; % can be adjusted and allow a group face higher number easier than with fix number, rest is skill and how you use your stuff. That's why some classes are preferd to other due to how stuff in game escalate.

Personally i do not consider furious howl weak (but as i said 3rd mastery and mid lack skill economy) so ye kinda lack of tactic synergy with base skills like left mastery in mid and right not that skills are weak, tactics are or no synergy.
I look at how kobs is build around spec tactic that do x when you sue Y, not at how much is powerfull, as torque said no one want a overpowered class just i try to find the way classes were thinked (their architecture) and how they should work and fix the holes.
KObs have 1 tactic in each mastery very powerfull for g-support: 2/3 are aura linked, now 1 is also 2h binded.
BG is very simila in this regard, it have 3 tactics which work with 3 skills so for me since both classes were designed and relased togheter this is their common build system and i try to work around that. Even have 2 very powerfull mastery (left and right) due to avoidance on mid this assure BG to be forced to go mid first for avoidance and then pick one or get the less good on both go like tri spec. so i dont see the problem torque talk about for exemple. mind killer and soul killer are something IB related so they are out from this architecture that's why i suggested after fix teh avoidance to use the missing tactic on right mastery to fix this synergy/tactic problem.
Why each of these 3 tactic should provide 3 effect is simple, chosen/kobs /BO/SM have auras or stats steal which provide multiple buff/debuff with out take GCD so is pretty simple allow BG to have some kind of skill economy.
That's just 4/6 tank not just chosen/KOBS. That's the sum of IB/BG "mediocrity"

[Bozzax]

I find it ironic to point out that most of your current concerns with BGs Tesq would have been avoided by using the original Loathing tree I proposed. Instead by your grace we ended up with all "turtle tank" tactics/abilities as low hanging fruit in the tree. The side effect was making parry / hate generation "out of reach" for most split/tri-specs.



Maybe you now also start to understand why NSP* should have remained a 6pts ability and why FoF, the equivalent to KOTBs Vigilance an ability that you didn't comprehend should have been pushed upward in Loathing with the "turtle tank" toughness tactic.

* NSP is one of two BG hate generating abilities. (Also 2h:ers don't have a problem with hate generation stop, L2P!)

A Loathing tree like I proposed and a minimal touch up on Anguish tree (see below) would improve util of 2h and more importantly SnB BGs. Buffing the Dark Protector toughness buff to be somthing "similar to IB's OF buffs" and Crush Vitality core tactic (33% or 40% AA reduction instead of 20%) would be other tweaks that makes perfect sense if you want to make BGs more group friendly.



BG util / Gains
+ Away Cretins AOE KB (M2)
+ Superpunt KB
+ 9pts AOE snare (logic place)
[+ 10% increased crits (2h) or +5s KD (Snb)]
+ AP-drain tri specs possible (4pts parry)
+ AP for group (and x4 parry)
+ CV damage reduction "similar" to AOE strength/toughness debuffs/buffs of Chosen/BO (at the cost of a tactic)
+ Improved survivability to Dark Protector "similar" to IBs +25% parry and +ini


Losses
- No "Turtle tank" toughness tactic without investing in the defensive tree (seems logic)
- "Turtle tank" FoF bumped upward to 13pts (same spot as similar abilities example Vigilance)
- Full turtle solo troll spec Bolstering Anger and FoF not possible in one spec (hardly a loss unless you duel a lot)

[Karast]

Spoiler:

I find it ironic to point out that much of your current issues with BGs Tesq would have been avoided by using the original Loathing tree I did propose.

Instead by your grace we ended up with all "turtle tank" tactics/abilities as low hanging fruit in the tree. The side effect was making BG util (AOE snare) and hate generation "out of reach" for most split/tri-specs. So to put it in plain english you pushed BG "turtle tank" over util.



Maybe you now also start to understand why NSP* should have remained a 6pts ability and why FoF, the equivalent to KOTBs Vigilance that you didn't comprehend at all at the time should have been pushed upward in Loathing with the "turtle tank" toughness tactic.

* NSP is one of two BG hate generating abilities. (Also 2h:ers don't have a problem with hate generation stop, L2P!)

A Loathing tree like I originally proposed and a minimal touch up on Anguish tree (see below) would improve util of 2h and SnB BGs. Buffing the dark protector toughness buff and the Crush Vitality core tactic (33% or 40% AA reduction instead of 20%) would be other tweaks that makes perfect sense if you want to make BGs more group friendly.



BG util / Gains
+ Away Cretins AOE KB (M2)
+ Superpunt KB
[+ 10% increased crits (2h) or +5s KD (Snb)]
+ AP for group (and x4 parry)
+ Easy to reach AOE snare
+ CV damage reduction "similar" to AOE strength/toughness debuffs/buffs of Chosen/BO (at the cost of a tactic)
+ Improved survivability to Dark Protector "similar" to IBs +25% parry and +ini
+ AP-drain tri specs viable

Losses
- No "Turtle tank" toughness tactic without investing in the defensive tree (seems logic)
- "Turtle tank" FoF bumped upward to 13pts (same spot as similar abilities example Vigilance, more logic)
- Full turtle solo troll spec Bolstering Anger and FoF not possible in one spec (hardly a loss unless you duel a lot)

In your new arrangement of the trees. What do you think would be the core 2h build? What is the core advantage for 2h BG. You might want to spell it out a bit more clearly.

One thing to be wary of though is that people get into this mode where they see every build as having everything, that is rarely the case with the exception of some horribly built tress with only low hanging fruit.

As much as people point to IB utility. You can't get everything. You have to make hard choices about getting the 2h dps tactic, earthshatter, the parry buff, and or the group AP tactic. People have a bad tendency to confuse roaming IB spec's with group spec's. Roaming IB will often give up their group utility skills. The IB trees are pretty solid as they are, because you have some value to going deep in the trees for key abilities and tactics that can really make and break builds.

Half the problem with some of the powerhouses at the moment is they have all the powerful skills grouped together in the same tree, or as low hanging fruit. Swapping a few abilities / tactics in the trees could really help the balance, just as you are proposing.

[Tesq]

@boxx hate management is not a problem in tri spec or s+b is only a problem of 2h which make NSP useless, you're currently mastery would had had seen a FOF never taken because how the other 2 mastery force you to spend a lot of point..
The tank problem of BG as turtle is not created by the new arragement (not mine, i made a suggestion other ppl make it live don't throw the hot potato of BG problems on me the new disposition actually made BG mroe viable not badder...) as:

1-caused by poor hate management (in the sense you spent too few hate in s+b , totally the opposite of what you are talking about)
2-by the disruot tactic/parry tactic and the toughness tactic togheter which mean you are build turtle tank and do not are it for free. You are leavign behind a lot of stuff and with out these btw you are a poro in def as tank so is either too tanky or very squigshy ....

(i can build every tank in game turtle what's up with that? BG in fact have few/no utillity in that spec)

->i also said when the mastery got fix that that would had been not enough, it would had been not a panacea and that also the "MAX"value reachable by BG as def tank regarding disrupt should be nerfed but that also the avoidance spread over 2 mastery is like a mastery MAD and it should be both nerfed in max value and also fixed to be in 1 tactic. Open up 1 slot more for BG.

The disposition you suggested would had made nothing as allow BG to **** ignore mid mastery and just go left -right ...that is not good a solution to fix a class; totally jimp 1 mastery and pass there to only take 1 parry tactic ignoring the snare(every tank should have his own CC screw this because you wanna a easy and fast solution would had been not good for the class in the long run; also 2h spec is in this moment in a lot better shape that what it would had been in the other way. SO at least BG have both 2 viable "different build" with that mastery fix and not just 1.
NSP is at the moment a very good PVE skill where you spec usually high in the mid mastery also for ap tactic if you need it. That's why was decided to put it there, because BG have in any S+B build no need for a hate increase and the def it provide you is lackluster when any decent group tab you. The buid you use wih s+b is tanky enough, the 2h have no use for it.
The tri spec you are talkign about is not existing until the detaunt tactic get changed in something more usefull and/or (maybe not) blade of ruin /aka all the mastery get a rorganization.

[Bozzax]

In your new arrangement of the trees. What do you think would be the core 2h build? What is the core advantage for 2h BG. You might want to spell it out a bit more clearly.

Spoiler:

One thing to be wary of though is that people get into this mode where they see every build as having everything, that is rarely the case with the exception of some horribly built tress with only low hanging fruit.

As much as people point to IB utility. You can't get everything. You have to make hard choices about getting the 2h dps tactic, earthshatter, the parry buff, and or the group AP tactic. People have a bad tendency to confuse roaming IB spec's with group spec's. Roaming IB will often give up their group utility skills. The IB trees are pretty solid as they are, because you have some value to going deep in the trees for key abilities and tactics that can really make and break builds.

Half the problem with some of the powerhouses at the moment is they have all the powerful skills grouped together in the same tree, or as low hanging fruit. Swapping a few abilities / tactics in the trees could really help the balance, just as you are proposing.

I'd expect these

2h
full dps / dps / utility / turtle (ish)

SnB
dps / utility / turtle

On top of my head

[Bozzax]

@boxx hate management is not a problem in tri spec or s+b is only a problem of 2h

Spoiler:

which make NSP useless, you're currently mastery would had had seen a FOF never taken because how the other 2 mastery force you to spend a lot of point..
The tank problem of BG as turtle is not created by the new arragement (not mine, i made a suggestion other ppl make it live don't throw the hot potato of BG problems on me the new disposition actually made BG mroe viable not badder...) as:

1-caused by poor hate management (in the sense you spent too few hate in s+b , totally the opposite of what you are talking about)
2-by the disruot tactic/parry tactic and the toughness tactic togheter which mean you are build turtle tank and do not are it for free. You are leavign behind a lot of stuff and with out these btw you are a poro in def as tank so is either too tanky or very squigshy ....

(i can build every tank in game turtle what's up with that? BG in fact have few/no utillity in that spec)

->i also said when the mastery got fix that that would had been not enough, it would had been not a panacea and that also the "MAX"value reachable by BG as def tank regarding disrupt should be nerfed but that also the avoidance spread over 2 mastery is like a mastery MAD and it should be both nerfed in max value and also fixed to be in 1 tactic. Open up 1 slot more for BG.

The disposition you suggested would had made nothing as allow BG to **** ignore mid mastery and just go left -right ...that is not good a solution to fix a class; totally jimp 1 mastery and pass there to only take 1 parry tactic ignoring the snare(every tank should have his own CC screw this because you wanna a easy and fast solution would had been not good for the class in the long run; also 2h spec is in this moment in a lot better shape that what it would had been in the other way. SO at least BG have both 2 viable "different build" with that mastery fix and not just 1.
NSP is at the moment a very good PVE skill where you spec usually high in the mid mastery also for ap tactic if you need it. That's why was decided to put it there, because BG have in any S+B build no need for a hate increase and the def it provide you is lackluster when any decent group tab you. The buid you use wih s+b is tanky enough, the 2h have no use for it.
The tri spec you are talkign about is not existing until the detaunt tactic get changed in something more usefull and/or (maybe not) blade of ruin /aka all the mastery get a rorganization.

I'm not going to answer anything beyond this point - this is simply not the case.


I think it is safe to say you pushed for the current layout of Loathing that gives turtle BGs with low util

You can't put a party tactict lower than the tough, the tough increase % is more base than the parry increase also the only comparable tactic it' mixed defense and it's on 5pt

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17502&p=191010&hil ... ct#p191010

[Partially implemented] Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

viewtopic.php?f=96&t=17583&hilit=parry#p191156

I can also dig out a thread where I argue quite a lot of making FoF 13pts etc.

[Tesq]

@boxx hate management is not a problem in tri spec or s+b is only a problem of 2h

Spoiler:

which make NSP useless, you're currently mastery would had had seen a FOF never taken because how the other 2 mastery force you to spend a lot of point..
The tank problem of BG as turtle is not created by the new arragement (not mine, i made a suggestion other ppl make it live don't throw the hot potato of BG problems on me the new disposition actually made BG mroe viable not badder...) as:

1-caused by poor hate management (in the sense you spent too few hate in s+b , totally the opposite of what you are talking about)
2-by the disruot tactic/parry tactic and the toughness tactic togheter which mean you are build turtle tank and do not are it for free. You are leavign behind a lot of stuff and with out these btw you are a poro in def as tank so is either too tanky or very squigshy ....

(i can build every tank in game turtle what's up with that? BG in fact have few/no utillity in that spec)

->i also said when the mastery got fix that that would had been not enough, it would had been not a panacea and that also the "MAX"value reachable by BG as def tank regarding disrupt should be nerfed but that also the avoidance spread over 2 mastery is like a mastery MAD and it should be both nerfed in max value and also fixed to be in 1 tactic. Open up 1 slot more for BG.

The disposition you suggested would had made nothing as allow BG to **** ignore mid mastery and just go left -right ...that is not good a solution to fix a class; totally jimp 1 mastery and pass there to only take 1 parry tactic ignoring the snare(every tank should have his own CC screw this because you wanna a easy and fast solution would had been not good for the class in the long run; also 2h spec is in this moment in a lot better shape that what it would had been in the other way. SO at least BG have both 2 viable "different build" with that mastery fix and not just 1.
NSP is at the moment a very good PVE skill where you spec usually high in the mid mastery also for ap tactic if you need it. That's why was decided to put it there, because BG have in any S+B build no need for a hate increase and the def it provide you is lackluster when any decent group tab you. The buid you use wih s+b is tanky enough, the 2h have no use for it.
The tri spec you are talkign about is not existing until the detaunt tactic get changed in something more usefull and/or (maybe not) blade of ruin /aka all the mastery get a rorganization.

I'm not going to answer anything beyond this point - this is simply not the case.


I think it is safe to say you pushed for the current layout of Loathing that gives turtle BGs with low util

You can't put a party tactict lower than the tough, the tough increase % is more base than the parry increase also the only comparable tactic it' mixed defense and it's on 5pt

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17502&p=191010&hil ... ct#p191010

[Partially implemented] Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

viewtopic.php?f=96&t=17583&hilit=parry#p191156

I can also dig out a thread where I argue quite a lot of making FoF 13pts etc.

i never pushed any changes because i wanna be a a turtle man, i first rolled a BG played it 2h then suggested x changes and why. The turtle build you expected me to play was used by me only after a long period of time after these changes where gone live just to test it.
And yes please tell me what hate consume you have in s+b...

choking fury/furious howl and shield of rage are youre only source of hate cost and is not like you are spamming them, compared to a 2h build where you need to spam CD instead and you are a lot more active than a s+b build because you need to apply also the wounds debuff and so ap go away faster you need ap and you drop your hate for regen ap.
I have a BG i know what im talking about my by is 100 hate all the time if i go s+b even if i use ap drain / absorb etc. MY 2h build need a lot more of hate management. In zerg situation is really hard to keep it up but also try to be build for support.

If i wanted to push for turtle build i would said LIKE YOU WANTED parry tactic on 3pt + same for disrupt one. I done that to make choice in build, choice as you posted those spec you would not have because the best spec would be just 1+3 mastery and pass to get parry. That's exatly was was tryed to be avoid.

Right know the best BG build is S+b that focus on apply crush the weak on 2 dps(or on healer) super punt away other threads like tanks or KD em/healer end double ap drain healer or dd. This is also more trustable in def regard even with out spec for disrupt tactic, just go with parry/tough , ap drain, ap regen. ANd is s+b because crush the weak require high hate and look in s+b you always have like 90-100 hate. You can keep 2 ppl at -20% crit chance all the time if you want.
Rergardless the fix i suggested were done by a 2h support BG not s+b you are pretty fail here boxx and you little disappoint me. My idea was just give BG 2 viable spec one 2h for wb fight and one for small skirmish s+b. There was nothing such turtle spec in my mind.

[Marsares]

Destro tanks... get rid of your morale pump then talk about balances between tanks

I didn't realize BGs were favoured by Warbands because of their fast morale pumps.... oh wait, they don't have such luxuries and our last actual warband-orientated guild Phalanx doesn't even seem to have BGs in their WB roster. (because they want chosen and blorcs with their faster M4s)

I am their only active BG for WBs and I only get tolerated because I am a deftard tank that is tough as nails and because tanks are always in demand. Utility wise, the BG brings very little to a WB and nothing that isn't done better by other classes.

Even our ST buffs through our Dark Protector are rather "meh" compared to the Ironbrealer.

Playing a BG in WBs is rather soul destroying as there is no valid argument why you should have one. 2-handed Crimson Death spam can be useful as a debuff, but in a WB setting you generally become too squishy to fulfil your role as a tank then.

ST rebuffs are by and large decent or good, but only truly excel in a small-scale setting.

In short - BG is largely fine in small-scale debuffing (although 2-hander and our Dark Protector buffs could do with some love) but severely lacks group or single utility in large-scale play and is overshadowed by other classes.

[Bozzax]

I done that to make choice in build, choice as you posted those spec you would not have because the best spec would be just 1+3 mastery and pass to get parry. That's exatly was was tryed to be avoid.

If you click all the specs I posted you'll discover 1 spec out of 7 "bypassed" mid tree

Please consider this, why should BGs have 8pts mandatory in mid tree (lets assume it is a requirement for using guard)?

8pts pretty much kills every other split spec with a notch more util (unless you are rr70 ofc) SnB example / 2h example

Also keep in mind if the BG wants to be tanky he can just go ham in mid tree. Exactly like all other tanks that wants to turtle up.

Right know the best BG build is S+b that focus on apply crush the weak on 2 dps(or on healer) super punt away other threads like tanks or KD em/healer end double ap drain healer or dd. This is also more trustable in def regard even with out spec for disrupt tactic, just go with parry/tough , ap drain, ap regen. ANd is s+b because crush the weak require high hate and look in s+b you always have like 90-100 hate.

Seems like you are better off getting a Chosen or a BO ... doh!

Never mind ... this discussion is pointless and balance is closed

[Karast]

Destro tanks... get rid of your morale pump then talk about balances between tanks

I didn't realize BGs were favoured by Warbands because of their fast morale pumps.... oh wait, they don't have such luxuries and our last actual warband-orientated guild Phalanx doesn't even seem to have BGs in their WB roster. (because they want chosen and blorcs with their faster M4s)

I am their only active BG for WBs and I only get tolerated because I am a deftard tank that is tough as nails and because tanks are always in demand. Utility wise, the BG brings very little to a WB and nothing that isn't done better by other classes.

Even our ST buffs through our Dark Protector are rather "meh" compared to the Ironbrealer.

Playing a BG in WBs is rather soul destroying as there is no valid argument why you should have one. 2-handed Crimson Death spam can be useful as a debuff, but in a WB setting you generally become too squishy to fulfil your role as a tank then.

ST rebuffs are by and large decent or good, but only truly excel in a small-scale setting.

In short - BG is largely fine in small-scale debuffing (although 2-hander and our Dark Protector buffs could do with some love) but severely lacks group or single utility in large-scale play and is overshadowed by other classes.

I would have no problem seeing BG get a version of told ya so, and maybe having the AoE snare moved around. That is where the bulk of IB warband utility is. But even IB are complete slack compared to knights / chosen. Heck if BO didn't have the morale pump tactic, so would they. Especially in a warband setting.

At some point we gotta realize that there is just a fundamental problem when it comes to chosen / knight and their group utility. AoE buffs / debuffs that make dozens of single target and AoE buffs useless.