[Feedback] Engineer / Magus Changes

[peterthepan3]

Who cares about non-premade balance? Why should balance revolve around people not being in a group? I honestly struggle to fathom why.

Because the Engi/Magus weren't changed around premade play?

Actually I'm fairly sure that Havoc was changed around premade/6-man play.

[Panzerkasper]

Who cares about non-premade balance? Why should balance revolve around people not being in a group? I honestly struggle to fathom why.

Because the Engi/Magus weren't changed around premade play?

Actually I'm fairly sure that Havoc was changed around premade/6-man play.

I highly doubt that, because then the classes should have been reworked completely and not just given more damage/range. They would need some kind of utility like a Healdebuff, a CD increaser, a CD decreaser for their team or some things like that.

Thats why you still see rarely see destro rdps premades, because the utility on the classes is just not at all as good as the order counterparts.

[peterthepan3]

The class was always functioning well in warband/solo, but it lacked a spot in 6mans because it offered nothing of value and couldn't replace a Squig or Sorc. This is what prompted the Havoc buffs, because all classes should be able to fill in a spot and the Magus is a RDPS.

What the class does bring is 15% dmg to the table, a stagger, aoe KD, a disarm etc.

Rarely? All you see nowadays are destro ranged premades lol.

[Lektroluv]

Enginers need some autocriticism, look at scenarios and keep attacks-assaults, look at the number of persons online plumping to 666 online one saturday at 18:10 in the european peak hour.

But i think it is late, the enginer community prefer sink the boat as captains than only beign a sailor, and reading people comments, looks like it is certainly proven.
To me the damage is already done, first with DoK and WP and now with this Enginer changes, took away too many classes fun and making them feel as useless for influence in the scenario and open rvr battlefield.

Enginers will not accept easy a tonedown, and even if developers wanna balance game (now it is not even close to be) the population will be hurt other time, in case it is done.

What are your proposals for engineer changes ? For the turret bonus what would you gives to each turret ? Please don't tell only there's a problem with engineers without giving some solutions

The obvious first one is cut the damage, and not by small cut...you wanna be king of long distance,ok, but not giving nothing in exchange and obiusly damage is a good start.
You can't give a 40% damage buff, and 40% range buff to a class which already had the longer attack in game 150 feet, a class which always use the argument of physical damage for get benefits in game and avoid talk about theyr advantages, when they know perfectly some dots are corporeal damage and the mitigation is quite diferent from physical one.

A class which can stack snipe+hollow points+corporeal dot and nearly kill one squishy target before he could even reach theyr much shorter abilities range and cast one of theyr abilitys (yeah i bet that is quite fun for those classes, and they will keep playing the unbalanced gameplay for you.. i wonder why many of them do not play theyr class, left game and prefer go play Day-Z for example)

Even the new disrupt + dodge buff is quite wrong, maybe for magical classes seems overpowered because they can't get theyr rotations on them and because they are geting disrupts each 1 or 2 spell's casts, but for SH and SW is even worse geting permanent dodges on classes which really havea neglectable lower damage output because they are real physical.

Gunturret should only give 40% damage, not any range buff. You wanna make damage? ok, but you will need to do it at a spot where you can die and and still risk lose range of shoting because other player run out of you.... like all the common mortals always did with a 3 sec cast ability, remember fester arrow? or the pathetic clone Poison arrer which nobody use? face the limitations of a 3 sec cast with hight damage, go into arena and test your luck of survive and use moral 2, before the other player run out of range, you have 50 feet more that those classes with 100 feet ability, more than enough diference for test your luck like other players always did.

Now lets compare why a enginer should never get a 32% dodge and disrupt buff, let's look at Blackguard a TANK class (the worst one by far, even after rearrange in central path) they have to spend 12 points for achieve a TACTIC (yes one tactic spot less) that grant them ONLY 30% disrupt and NONE dodge, in case you are up to 100% hate which they are always using and making hate fluctuate betwen lower numbers.
Other time we are talking about a class which bypass theyr role and goes into something they shouldn't be able to achieve stack serious amount of armour, heal himself and people around him with Keg Barrel for infinite more amount than blackguard does with theyr SELF non spameable healing aura which consume hate and weaken himself and finally watch how enginer buff himself for more disrupt amount than a TANK class (let's skip talking about dodge which the blackguard do not receive an inch) and all this withouth use the tactic slot the tank class needs to, nice isn't it?

I face staff member telling us everytime, if this class get's a nerf they will need to receive something in exchange... the truth is Squig Herder already got 4 fixes-nerfs which directly or indirectly ended in making them weaker, and didn't got anything in exchange. (so this sentence about something in exchange, must only affect some classes)

I will specify the nerfs-fixes in case you forgot them, because order still ask for more...(prolly order tanks love squig herders because Squigh is hiting them for 47hp dot ticks each 9 blocks and 15 dodges,while tanks can still hit them for 400 damage hits instead)

1- Kaboom was fixed making it stationary, and eliminating the back jump which gave you a small tool for acces hard to achieve spots and which was very good for a range class (on this one i can be almost agree because could achieve spots imposible to achieve for melee dps, not only hard to achieve, making it OP)

2- Fixing pet weapon DPS while other classes like enginer got a much lower reduction on weapon dps used by tourret ( 70% of dps made by the first weapon + dps of ranged weapon) making enginer dps around 72dps in tier 4.
The White lion pet is link to use a 2hand weapon making it too a theorical 72dps+ in tier 4.
Instead the Spiked or Gas Squig herder pet (the ones which people use the most) only receive a valour of range weapon ONLY.
Resulting in a 50% cut of the original pet damage while other classes lost around 28%, in a class which still has not magical damage dots (exploding arrer is a joke of ability 350 elemental damage over 9 seconds with 1050 BS lolololol... 50 hp dot ticks will lead the team to the victory) we didn't get nothing in exchange

3- NERF in spiked pet (YES NERF, THIS IS NOT A FIX) making the pet first go into a 65 feet range and after a minimal retouch into 80 feets range....remember the pet is facing targets such as enginer which use theyr abilities in 210 feet range, yes one more time enginer range buff is back to 40% buff, so the snipe + hollow points + corporeal dot damage almost kill your pet before even use an ability, and yes i seen my pets dieing before achieve one ability in caledor keep assault two days ago)
we didn't get nothing in exchange

4- Fixing theSquigh Herder pet autoattack while doing the channeling ability, yes it was a fix but indirectly ends in a nerf... other time the physical damage dealer got another hit and of course we didn't get nothing in exchange


I am not only talking for me, there are many people which is not happy with enginers range,damage and disrupt-dodge, there is other people which has mages or enginers and are happy with it of course, ok is theyr right to feel like class is nice now... but is far from beign balanced.

I could have been like them on LIVE servers when i played my Kotbs, but instead i always said the Kotbs was overpowered killing shamans removing theyr 3 blessings with 65 feet range and making damage in each spell removed, or looking at Witch elfs killing themselfs with an aura damage shield not mitigated which proced in all attacks not each 3 seconds like it is now,ignoring if they were range or a melee attack, and i said too the original resistances debuffs were too hight untill they were nerfed and made them change them.
Not because my enginer from live server died from chosens in no time with spiritual attacks and theyr hight resistances debuff...i said the auras were too powerfull when i rerolled into a kotbs and noticed the debuf was too hight for everyone.

Maybe because some people just want balanced fights against other players, not lolclass laughting them in keeps like yesterday in dragonwake with defensive enginers, just because defensive enginer can just stay there like herpes and beign unkillable.



The solutions is very simple, if you want damage the range buff must go, and if you want range your damage buff must go and the corporeal damage dots must go back to physical damage instead and face mitigation as they should.
If you wanna argue Mage is magical damage, and the reduction would affect them less, i am not agree your burst is much higher, hollow points and moral 2 are on your side and you have autoattack, which mage lacks, and still the disrupt amount on this game is higher and easier to achieve than dodge (i think both dodge and disrupt should be not that hight, but that is another story)

[sotora]

If you are in a group with other players, and are playing as a group, i.e. as you should be. - regardless of class composition/voice comms - you are a premade.

There are a lot of people complaining, yes, but why is it that the majority of these complaints seem to stem from pug play, and not premade play?

Most complaints I see comes from Scenarios and RVR and 99% ppl in scenarios are grouped and even most "casuals" ppl in RVR are gropped too either in WB or some more or less ad-hoc roam group.

The class was always functioning well in warband/solo, but it lacked a spot in 6mans because it offered nothing of value and couldn't replace a Squig or Sorc. This is what prompted the Havoc buffs, because all classes should be able to fill in a spot and the Magus is a RDPS.

What the class does bring is 15% dmg to the table, a stagger, aoe KD, a disarm etc.

I doubt many people oppose strenghtening Magus/Engi for premades, but most/all complaints come from areas in which engi/magus were already 'functioning well' like you said yourself, especially from ORVR/objective based scenarios where already good class got huge boost.

I am all for Engi/Magus being considered a viable option to be brough to Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel, 6v6 guild fight or anything else where 6-man group is tightly picked. I am just of opinion it would be good if that is done in a way that does not drive people away from ROR due to casuals frustrations in objective scenarios&ORVR . Simply want ROR to be succesful and for this server to be succesful all parts of game have to be enjoyable.

[Tesq]

If you are in a group with other players, and are playing as a group, i.e. as you should be. - regardless of class composition/voice comms - you are a premade.

There are a lot of people complaining, yes, but why is it that the majority of these complaints seem to stem from pug play, and not premade play?

Most complaints I see comes from Scenarios and RVR and 99% ppl in scenarios are grouped and even most "casuals" ppl in RVR are gropped too either in WB or some more or less ad-hoc roam group.

The class was always functioning well in warband/solo, but it lacked a spot in 6mans because it offered nothing of value and couldn't replace a Squig or Sorc. This is what prompted the Havoc buffs, because all classes should be able to fill in a spot and the Magus is a RDPS.

What the class does bring is 15% dmg to the table, a stagger, aoe KD, a disarm etc.

I doubt many people oppose strenghtening Magus/Engi for premades, but most/all complaints come from areas in which engi/magus were already 'functioning well' like you said yourself, especially from ORVR/objective based scenarios where already good class got huge boost.

I am all for Engi/Magus being considered a viable option to be brough to Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel, 6v6 guild fight or anything else where 6-man group is tightly picked. I am just of opinion it would be good if that is done in a way that does not drive people away from ROR due to casuals frustrations in objective scenarios&ORVR . Simply want ROR to be succesful and for this server to be succesful all parts of game have to be enjoyable.

i think that any character with good armor and capped resistence is durable enough against these type of burst (and guard) bw/sorc one is faster and more mobile but it also require to be nearer, my problem with magus are the fail cross mirror between faction; miss rkd/channeling snare/heal debuff /funnel power coevalent and engi keg being better than out version such A) spamable B) healing all group for not debuffable heals. (can they even crit maybe?)
Generally speaking maybe the cast time should be reduced for rst path and range reduced while mid path should be made all castable on the move; pet choice will decide your playstile anyway so better make the type of the buff related to the pet but link only the damage buff to be near the pet;
range increase and mobility for 1rst and second path imo should be something linked to the skill x se.
Another problem of the mid path is the general speaking low range after a maybe cast on the move change it may still need to be increase to 85 feet by default, change the tactic to 100 feet instead (or either 100 feet base as bw/sorc mid path but rework the range tactic totally).

[Grunbag]

@lektroluv :
What I see is that you're more bother by rifleman ( snipers build ) than grenadier or tinkerer .
I don't play rifleman , test it a bit when it got buffed but I didn't found it attractive .
First , don't get wrong a sniper build cannot use the flameturret cause of the range debuff of the turret , the only engineers that use the flameturret (with disrupt/dodge) are tinkerer who are really exposed to mdps . They can't reach to caster unless they sit at their feets (50feet range not more) . I play engineer , now when I want to place my mine to debuff casttime healer /caster I have to walk all through the mdps to be closer to the caster , and it make me out of heal from my own healer , so I have risk with that turret : staying stationnary and deal with mdps without bother caster (which is the goal of a tinkerer , not an engineer that is looking to have the highest dmg in scenario) , or moving out of my turret /guard /healer to go to healer caster trying to do my job .
It could be frustrating for rdps to meet this kind of engineer , but if you compared them like a tank why are you focusing them ? You better focus weakest rdps or healer first and when you done , just finish tinkerers at the same time than tanks .
If you don't find the dodge disrupt good , what would you give to tinkerer ? Keep in mind that we have ridiculous range as tinkerer.

For snipers , it's another story : that's the new built for solo / casual player that playing RoR to make max of kill /laugh . Dev already nerf the gunturret , nerf the sniper , as I suggest in another thread they finally put the sniper ability to 13 points (that was unfair that sniper was able the have a build with sniper / +15% crit tactic and heal keg . Now it's impossible to have those 3 abilities and I'm agree with that .
Maybe it's not enough and the tree need to be nerf again , but that would be decided by dev .
If you want a nerf of dmg boost for gunturret , then we shouldn't have to lose the 4 stack when turret got destroyed (we can't stand 16seconds static , for having a small dmg boost and risk to lose 4 stack really quickly)

About the ability to reach high def stats
I want to Be clear with that too : yes we can stack armor (set , jewel , talis , buff , tactic , potion ) but to have to high def stats we lose all dps ( I am currently testing a full support def build) I can reach to 4+ armor but I have only 393 BS , and 0% crit rate . It's impossible (or tell me how to do) to have 4K+ armor , 550 toughness , 0% crit reduce , 600/800 resist , 24% dodge disrupt , and have decent dps stats (BS and crit rate)
I don't think riflemen have any good def stats so they can be killed by WE easily (maybe I'm wrong , I don't play rifleman a WE might tell us)

[Grunbag]

If you are in a group with other players, and are playing as a group, i.e. as you should be. - regardless of class composition/voice comms - you are a premade.

There are a lot of people complaining, yes, but why is it that the majority of these complaints seem to stem from pug play, and not premade play?

Most complaints I see comes from Scenarios and RVR and 99% ppl in scenarios are grouped and even most "casuals" ppl in RVR are gropped too either in WB or some more or less ad-hoc roam group.

The class was always functioning well in warband/solo, but it lacked a spot in 6mans because it offered nothing of value and couldn't replace a Squig or Sorc. This is what prompted the Havoc buffs, because all classes should be able to fill in a spot and the Magus is a RDPS.

What the class does bring is 15% dmg to the table, a stagger, aoe KD, a disarm etc.

I doubt many people oppose strenghtening Magus/Engi for premades, but most/all complaints come from areas in which engi/magus were already 'functioning well' like you said yourself, especially from ORVR/objective based scenarios where already good class got huge boost.

I am all for Engi/Magus being considered a viable option to be brough to Caledor Woods/Eternal Citadel, 6v6 guild fight or anything else where 6-man group is tightly picked. I am just of opinion it would be good if that is done in a way that does not drive people away from ROR due to casuals frustrations in objective scenarios&ORVR . Simply want ROR to be succesful and for this server to be succesful all parts of game have to be enjoyable.

i think that any character with good armor and capped resistence is durable enough against these type of burst (and guard) bw/sorc one is faster and more mobile but it also require to be nearer, my problem with magus are the fail cross mirror between faction; miss rkd/channeling snare/heal debuff /funnel power coevalent and engi keg being better than out version such A) spamable B) healing all group for not debuffable heals. (can they even crit maybe?)
Generally speaking maybe the cast time should be reduced for rst path and range reduced while mid path should be made all castable on the move; pet choice will decide your playstile anyway so better make the type of the buff related to the pet but link only the damage buff to be near the pet;
range increase and mobility for 1rst and second path imo should be something linked to the skill x se.
Another problem of the mid path is the general speaking low range after a maybe cast on the move change it may still need to be increase to 85 feet by default, change the tactic to 100 feet instead (or either 100 feet base as bw/sorc mid path but rework the range tactic totally).

The heal abilities of engi /magus are really meant to be different : engineer is group orientated while magus is a self heal (to my knowledge magus as a tactic that can giveback heal on a attack and a wound buff that gives 1500 hp which is like a heal )
Engineer can heal his whole group but it takes 15 second to have to same heal value (for a single target ) than the magus wounds buff . (300 heal every 3 sec during 15 second engineer regain 1500 hp) while magus have it instantly (like he's taking a potion ) so the engineer heal is better for groups and the magus heal is better for solo. But both to me are good .
To answer you question yes the keg can crit (not really often)

[Tesq]

they are not mean to be different, the magus one offer return dmg (very low ) as a group/aoe support while the keg just heal everyone (not just group but 9 target); they should counter each other towards aoe play while also heal the user.

The imbalance is keg is spamable while magus one not; as i said the dmg provided are really low due the chance to proc and 250 more or less dmg after tough and resistences reduction are like 50 dmg x sec way less than engi keg heals.

The heal component is unique for engi while for magus is split into 2 due to bw cross mirroring but the main problem is it's not spamable. Not usable as often as the engi but neither provide a burst as it should meant for the aoe damages high enough to counter keg heals.
Considering also that keg heals can crit and cannot be debuff, keg win hands down because multiplers for raw value will definetly won over very lower dmg with chance to proc subject to dmg reduction. No target cap dont save it either due to low dmg and front line be made most by tanks that will soak all aoe make these dm g fluff on all the rest.

[Grunbag]

Yes but you forgot that magus has te wounds buff that gives him 1500 heal instant. Maybe in a aoe build the magus doesn't really care about this heal but for the havoc? (Long range) tree this is really usefull . I don't think the heal keg is the bigger problem for destro . On live no one complain about it as far as I remember , why now it is an issue ?
Maybe the problem is where the keg is in the tinkerer tree , but if you swap it with magnet it would be even worse you'll have many napalm/magnet build.