[Implemented] Group cleansing.

[Tesq]

Ppl first thing first if a dd can use some ap and have no draw back for dot spam then the cost of the cleanse should not be increase, second do some of you play a dok /wp ? soul essences go away lile candys, with out the sov itiemization you spend a lot of time rec and thus dok/wp are still based on ap. If you have no ap you do not rec. The cost increase would be overkill or it would require a total rework of all cost

I wanna also add to my previously post that that if any standard will enter inside the g-cleanse it should be based on the dok cleanse which involve some skill and time to tab ppl.

[Bozzax]

I did a short post earlier but I would like to take a bit of time to elaborate on why I think group cleanse should be changed to 60feet (a medium range ability).

Examining the WP/DOK abilities ...

WP/DOKs are designed to be “tanky tough” and being hit

- Several strong core on incoming hit proc tactics
- Medium armor
- Core passive extra armor (cov/prayer)
- multiple absorbs
- 100% uptime on AOE detaunt
- Gear with tanky procs, especially the early days stuff

They alone have melee-medium ranged heals

- The 13pts channel that “no one ever gets”
- Channel lifetap

Have good melee CCs

- M3 stagger
- Silence, KB etc

But most importantly, WP/DOKs are immune to many issues “castesr” normally suffers from

- Separate resource pool – AP-drain immune
- Short cast timers – little setbacks
- Simple - easy to play even under pressure
- Instant melee range resource builders
- Fire and forget group hots

All good on paper - what the f…. happened?

We all know WP/DOKs heals, cleanses etc was 100 feet so WP/DOKs ofc became the “tanky tough” back line healers instead healing safely at full efficiency.

So why am I writing all this derail in a group cleanse thread?

If group cleanse “gets it” why not make it a medium range ability (60feet)? As I see it there are two good things coming out of this
1. Group cleanse, the envy of all other healers becomes less efficient - Check!
2. “Tanky tough” back line WP/DOKs won’t be as effective as near front WP/DOKs - Check!

Suddenly all that armor, separate resource pool, short cast times makes sense. Heck even the 13pts heal channel becomes interesting.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

Because they have not 100% aoe detaunt because spam melee rec remove the aoe detaunt, because spam aoe detaunt and aoe rec cost ap so for rec etc you need ap and thus wp/ dok are not immune to the ap dran.
Because order have rkd which make be a tanky front healer harder.
They have the armor in place of kiting tools not because they are front liner they are medium line healee and even not optimized.

[Koha]

WP and DoK group cleanse are not equivalent : DOK can cleanse all incoming heal debuff, WP don't. A single SH is enough to perma healdebuff a group, while for a SW it's pretty hard to keep two target debuffed with double dok comps.

Solution 2 sounds good to me : group cleanse will still be a counter to aoe effects.

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

Because they have not 100% aoe detaunt because spam melee rec remove the aoe detaunt, because spam aoe detaunt and aoe rec cost ap so for rec etc you need ap and thus wp/ dok are not immune to the ap dran.
Because order have rkd which make be a tanky front healer harder.
They have the armor in place of kiting tools not because they are front liner they are medium line healee and even not optimized.

Like I wrote, medium range on their group cleanse would pretty much solve the problem and justify WP/DOKs being much tougher etc while reducing the efficiency.

There is a huge difference to have a non drainable resource pool if you don't understand this I can't help you (hint flee). Breaking your own detaunt imo is a l2p issue.

I've actually played a RR100 DOK and never had problems to kite. I will even go so far and claim dok/wp groups was superior kiting a larger force with range and melee. I know this because I survived more often than the cloth healers when we escaped.

Ps. in most situations you didn't even have to kite just soak it up and heal through.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

@ Boxx

Thx of course you would had not problem kite: renown skils, pocket absirb, crit immune from set+ odjira proc stackable with renown speed proc+ all lotd back eff from you inventory

Breacking your own detaunt is the norm in wb play , flee is a bad call it reset all you essence man and dosent remove a 40% snare

@Koha point is debatable you can bury the important debuff such healdebuff and it will still work due the fact that ror do not have a random cleanse but fixed to the early applied ; unless it was changed and im not aware from it

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

@ Boxx

Thx of course you would had not problem kite: renown skilla pocket and crit immune from set+ odjira proc stackable with renown speed proc

Bud I easily did it without those

The things you listed helped clothies more then me.

DOK/WP is much tougher (not little ... shitloads tougher)
DOK/WP benefit by design from being hit
DOK/WP are "immune to AP-drain" and are less prone to be set back
DOK/WP are better at kiting (especially mixed groups)
DOK/WP can heal through most stuff that drop a clothie and typically don't need to kite very often
DOK/WP heals more @80-100 feet

Group cleanse is a big part of this and personally I'd like us to consider the option to reduce the efficiency of DOK/WP healing safely and efficiently @ 80-100 feet. While also promoting a medium range play style with extra benefits (grp clns) that imo is aligned with the original design idea of the class.

Breacking your own detaunt is the norm in wb play , flee is a bad call it reset all you essence man and dosent remove a 40% snare

No, no and no (and no no no no no)

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

@ Boxx

Thx of course you would had not problem kite: renown skilla pocket and crit immune from set+ odjira proc stackable with renown speed proc

Bud I easily did it without those

The things you listed helped clothies more then me.

DOK/WP is much tougher (not little ... shitloads tougher)
tougheter vs melee only by armor stats
DOK/WP benefit by design from being hit
the meccanic dosen't benefith from being it, he need a tactic
DOK/WP are "immune to AP-drain" and are less prone to be set back
dok need rec and rec need ap, aoe prove differently about set back on my dok
DOK/WP are better at kiting (especially mixed groups)
what kiting tools they have?

DOK/WP can heal through most stuff that drop a clothie and typically don't need to kite very often
playing as a back line healer still dosen't mean you will not have to kite
DOK/WP heals more @80-100 feet

Group cleanse is a big part of this and personally I'd like us to consider the option to reduce the efficiency of DOK/WP healing safely and efficiently @ 80-100 feet. While also promoting a medium range play style with extra benefits (grp clns) that imo is aligned with the original design idea of the class.

Breacking your own detaunt is the norm in wb play , flee is a bad call it reset all you essence man and dosent remove a 40% snare

No, no and no (and no no no no no)

yes yes yes sy but the cost of an aoe heal is really high (60 point) with 4 aoe heals in 4 sec you have alredy used all your soul essence and you need to rec melee and this mean if you hit all the target and you do not get defended you need every 1 detaunt 2 rec which of course break ypur detaunt, this also badder on dok since wp can detunat ranged and still rec on melee for further order broken stuff.Also add the 2x Rkd for more destru bias

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

what kiting too they have

Watch and learn ... https://youtu.be/Gn7eUX5G3AA and this I think is even more fab https://youtu.be/KTP2hPUjoes

Having a 60feet group cleanse would not have changed much in these vids but it would make WP/DOKs a medium range healer for cleanse instead of a back line spammer, tougher then other BL cloth healers.

(CW/FM) + Flee + AP-pot was a no brainer if you were depleted and surrounded. Normally all immunities would be "lit" this point so you would get away and could reposition.

EDIT: Expect RR100 procs and renown speed procs in the movies as all healers (all heal classes) used those on live (end game). If you still don't get it watch the movie again https://youtu.be/Gn7eUX5G3AA?t=1m55s. Repeat until you get it. Watch this "wb of 6" kite a significantly larger "wb" with (r)dps hammering the dok.

Odjira procs, Anti-crit procs impressive Tesq did not notice them

EDIT2:

4 aoe heals in 4 sec

Epic! must be a "wb play" thing?

EDIT3:

Spoiler:

tougheter vs melee only by armor stats

SWs, Engies, self cleansing BWs ... hmm

the meccanic dosen't benefith from being it, he need a tactic

Both are designed with core incoming hit tactics that increase healing output, WPs is more obvious.

dok need rec and rec need ap, aoe prove differently about set back on my dok

My suggestion would be to level up a 2.5s group healer and compare to 1.0s casts in AOE situations.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

i see rr 100 procs crit procs, renown speed procs/odjira procs, anti crit etc exatly what i told you previously, also better soul regen than what currently dok/wp have avaiable and not even once a wb play where you CAN'T KITE so perfectly or you get pull.

ppl should give a look at sigmarpriest posts history in this thread viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11654 because they are relevant and touch all the issues linked to:

1) range change
2)ap resource management
3) cost of skills