[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[Marsares]

I would be against an AOE snare with significantly increased GCD, as this goes against the principle of it being a reliable gap closer that the WL needs as a MDPS that is designed to burst targets down that typically reside in the back-line.

As outlined in my previous post, a ST uncleansable snare/speed proc of 50% with a 3s duration at a reasonable CD of 10s would achieve that. These numbers need to be tested on Live obviously in order to determine if they do facilitate a reliable gap closer.

It should force the WL to commit, whilst having a reasonable degree of certainty to get within melee range of the intended target. The more I think about it, the more I like a soeed proc rather than a snare, as it supports the principle of it being a highly mobile class, whilst also giving an alternative escape mechanism rather than Pounce spam to get out if the WL misjudged the Pounce.

[Azarael]

I share Kattastrof's opinion. Pounce is very internally imbalanced, but not that externally imbalanced. Attack Pounce on the basis of one ability being capable of doing too much without solving wider issues with the class's design and toolkit and all you will do is kill the class.

[Marsares]

Hallelujah Azareal and thank you.

Whilst some abilities can be looked at in isolation with many classes, Pounce is not one of them, hence why i refer to it in my previous posts as class defining and why I challenged Penril on his statement that we cannot discuss wider issues with the WL and why I questioned Wargrinnirs stance on pet issues being manageable.

[kryss]

I share Kattastrof's opinion. Pounce is very internally imbalanced, but not that externally imbalanced. Attack Pounce on the basis of one ability being capable of doing too much without solving wider issues with the class's design and toolkit and all you will do is kill the class.

Jesus THANK YOU, finally someone who gets the wider picture. I'm not against modifying pounce, I'm just saying that IF you do so, you have to take care of evrything related to it. Is a dev or GM always right? Maybe, maybe not, in this case I think not. If Wargrinnir's answer to a disappearing pet (for 15-20 secs, which is A LOT and breaks the class) is "Use the attack key in the UI" it means there's a flaw at the base of the balance proposals. Please don't use censorship against the WL players (veterans, not pounce spamming noobs) that are trying to give you the wider picture, just because it's "offtopic". It is not, it is critical for a fair take on the class.

[Theseus]

Yes, have you ever roamed with aao for example, burst a healer you know dont know what detaunt, toughness and armor is at the back of a fat zerg and pounce back to safety by chosing a new target every pounce.
Split second decissions and a rush you cant get by any other class.
The intensity and apm required to control pet, use pounce BP, send pet to target and LF the same gcd.
Then realise they just detaunted you or got a guard and have to chose a new target, pounce there and send pet before you waste the pet abilities

I am not the best WL but I know what Im talking about and I am a oldschool player who never used a ability macro or NB
If you can change WL to a sustain dps instead of a allin burster you can change pounce

Of course I have. But you need abour 5 sec to kill the target anyways... and if its to hot, charge is, at least in my oppinion, the better choice to make an escape.

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

Pounce is a terrible ability. On the surface it appears to be very strong, an overpowered spammable mobility tool that prevents players from using any sort of meaningful CC.
In reality, the base damage is one of the weakest in their kit. The ability itself is poorly optimized, causing you to land out of range if your target is moving at all. It is also very easy to momentarily justify spamming it, once you land out of range you have the choice either popping Feline's Grace (60s CD 45 AP!) and then Charge (30s CD) to get close enough to snare/CC your target, or save yourself the time and Pounce (30AP) again. While you're using two abilities just to clear off the inevitable CC applied to you, chances are the target you're chasing is running right back into the safety of their allies, making yourself the now-primary target.

Of course, people don't remember the times that a WL suicides into their frontlines, they just remember the times a WL catches them in the open as a well armored pet class, and has their 1v1 way with them.

Something with this ability is not working correctly. It's not serving the proper function as a gap closer without requiring it to be spammed as the sole ability until the target runs out of attempts to CC, or the WL runs out of AP. The stigma it causes for non-WL players is that it's a pure cheese ability that is blatantly overpowered, without understanding the nuances.

Warg. I think your assessment off “pounce being just a broken gap closer” is incorrect and would like to offer my own view on what pounce is.

Pounce is a great ability. The ability however is poorly optimized, causing you to land out of range if your target is moving. This shortcoming makes it an average gap closer but it will work from time to time, similar to RNG/counter play on Maras TE.

Back lines typically have build up abilities and needs to be stationary while casting or are CC:d, this is the window of opportunity. Other times you will need to follow up with other abilities to close the gap or abort the attempt. Experienced players are ofc harder to catch as they anticipate your move and counter play by moving.

The base damage is the strongest ranged attack on a melee dps class, in fact it is the only ranged ability except throw axes/daggers.

Pounce lets you bypass/escape/ignore terrain restrictions/obstacles and you can cover a 65 feet distance in 1.5 seconds (normally takes about 4s). It makes pounce the equivalent of an on demand up to 166% speed proc. Also when you are heavily snared, you can just use it to "skip" ignoring slowing effects and thus save your snare break. When your guard is punted and enemies have you pinned down, you normally have an option to target a “satellite” enemy and escape death. Another totally overlooked aspect is that pounce makes you immune to defensive KBs giving your teams pressure harder to defuse.

In team setups it is a great assist tool with multiple unique properties. You can instantly target switch even when assisting mdps, rdps or a stealther that moved deep into enemy back lines. That jump means there are virtually no down time. Assisting ofc imply others apply the CC which you need in order for WL to be most effective. No other melee class has this great synergy with rdps or work as seamless in mixed groups.

Of course, people don't remember the times that a WL suicides into their frontlines in team vs team play because it never happens. They just remember the times a WL catches them in the open while being stationary casting or rkd:ed.

Making pounce a reliable gap closer that "enables" the full potential on WL burst on any napping clothie would probably mean you would need to give up most of those "other" things I've listed. Do note that all other reliable CC-ignoring/removing abilities in this game or gap closer comes at 30-60s CD (Flee, Charge, Snare breaks, TE, Fetch, Magnet ...)

[Penril]

Hallelujah Azareal and thank you.

Whilst some abilities can be looked at in isolation with many classes, Pounce is not one of them, hence why i refer to it in my previous posts as class defining and why I challenged Penril on his statement that we cannot discuss wider issues with the WL and why I questioned Wargrinnirs stance on pet issues being manageable.

There is a big difference between:

"It is a bad idea to give Pounce to a pet that is inherently broken with several issues since this would potentially kill the class. Instead, I would suggest X, because Y"

and

"Fix the pet instead!"

Posts like the second one will continue to be moderated.

[Kopfmotorrad]

Spoiler:

Quoting Wargrimnir:

This statement was not made in regards to 1v1, but a group situation in which the role of the WL is to catch players out of position and punish them for it.

Sounds to me like you want to solo kill someone and if you dont get a snare on your pounce, then you will have a hard time doing that.
It doesnt really matter if you a in a grp or on the sidelines of a skirmish while doing that, what you describe is still a 1vs1 situation.



I still stand by my aforementioned description of "pounce nuances" and how they make the white lion into a mean machine. Thats why pounce should get a cooldown.
It seems to me like this thread is in some kind of twilight zone where some poeple think we need to make the white lion stronger.
Any kind of snare or stun on the pounce would be way too strong in my opinion.

Strawmanning - Wargrimnir was clear that adding a cooldown to Pounce gives counterplay opportunities. The snare was intended only to allow the ability to function as a proper gap closer. - Penril

[Kali14]

Spoiler:

WL never don't buying heall debuff because this will cost him too many mastery points. Better waiting when slayer skip 8 tanks ,finally snare some healer , use against him healdebuff and under fire 4 sorcerers start dps him (if none order tank don't forget knock him away), and then WL use pounce and kill healer! Yay WL 8 kills and 1 death! Slayer 3 kills and deaths, WL is the best! Must be nerf!

Warning issued - Penril.

[7rere7]

Make pounce into a core ability and put Fetch into a path.
Pounce on a 10 cd cost no AP ,no damage with stagger effect.