Racial group fixing.

[footpatrol2]

@OP: You might think your thread is being hijacked. But you need to discuss synergy between all classes if you want to make racial groups work. For example, a full Greenskin group would be lacking reliable resists (maybe Da Greenest! procs, but the Shaman resist buff is not as good as a Chosen's). Also, you would lack group cleanse, and being unable to cleanse Engies means your whole group would have a bazillion DoTs on them in no time. You would be forced to spam group heal, which has a longer cast time than Dok's. And you can't risk that, since you aren't as tanky; you rely on kiting to stay alive. To add insult to injury, you can't cleanse BWs as well.

I'm really sorry to wall of text you guys

I don't approach this game from a 6 man meta perspective. Almost everyone I interact with on the forums sits in this mindset. I don't. I also don't limit myself to 2/2/2 set ups. I approach it from a 12 man perspective. So I'm starting my painting at the 12 man canvas and not the 6 man canvas. I'm not building isolated self dependant 6 man groups, although some are. I'm building groups that are built to work off each other at the 12 man level. This approach is different then most people building a 6 man group.

I'm getting my fronline combat units their resist buff via da greenest bellow but starting the fight off with the strippable shaman resist buff thou. Currently I'm not having a problem with a constant upkeep of it. I due lack group cleanse. Despite popular belief group cleanse is not mandatory. But I have access to a lot of healing and absorbs which will be explained below. Are Engineer's and BW's a problem. Yes. I accept that they are. I accept that is a weakness but as opposed to mixed groups I'm trying to exaggerate my strengths instead of mitigating my weaknesses. BW are always a problem and need to be focused first or shut down. BW are a problem for everyone. I combat Engineers through mass healing and absorbs/group absorbs and frontline pressure.

I really kinda don't want to give away my tricks but here we go since you asked.

So recently I've ran a mixed bag group of 4 shaman's. I want to eventually run a 6 man group of shamans. When we ran the group of 4 shaman's we were able to keep almost an entire warband kited by good placement of AoE snares and working off each other. The dps shaman's have to heal in order to build mechanic. You heal while kiting. You have to learn as a group to place your AE snare's down effectively there is a leap frog element to it. Once we build mechanic up to 5 We then turn, conduct a coordinated ere we go among all shaman's and Blast the opposition on a coordinated assist. Ere we go's stack so thats 6 ere we goe's per shaman all hitting one target.

Now I know a full 6 man shaman group lacks any type of staying power but it can kite and control movement like crazy. Its a utility group and helps teach the shaman's how to work off each other and kite effectively. The group is a lot more robust then it seems due to even the dps shaman's throwing out trashy hots and the group has access to instant rez's due to dps shaman's.

Ok I know that a 6 man group of pure shaman's can't stand up to current meta 6 man's. I never build groups with the intention of stopping at a 6 man group. I always build groups with the intention of it going to 12 man.

I am also building a melee Greenskinz 6 man that will provide frontline pressure. If I combine my frontline close combat greenskinz group with my 6 man shaman group I'll be bringing 8 shamans. If there is enough interest I can probably put up a 12 man on the weekends.

I'm currently doing this on this server. You'll see the groups if you play NA time.

If I bring 8 shaman's thats 8 mork sez stops, 8 breath of mork's that can be put on the frontline combat group, 8 Ap drains. 8 sticky feetz for elemental resist debuff's so the dps shaman's hit even harder. I'm likely to bring at least 1 15 point da green shaman for AE 120 toughness debuff 120 str/intel/ballistics debuff that chosen's can't due. Thats 8 absorbs i can throw on my main assist some being 1600 absorb. Likely 3 instant rezes and the list goes on and on. I haven't figured out the ideal 6 man shaman setup but it will likely have 3 dps shaman's in it. So thats 3 dps shaman's able to slot mork touch tactic which has a chance to remove a blessing on being hit. If the dps shaman's can free cast da Waaagh is comming i'm removing WP/RP group hots/absorbs in mass. The group hots/absorbs are turned into additional damage for me. If anything gets snare'd shaman's can remove 90% of the snares in the game.

I can mitigate 1 knight or even 2 knights with the shatter confidence tactic slotted through sheer healing capability. Now if you bring 4 knights thats a problem. But current mixed meta says you shouldn't. I'm stacking my strengths and not mitigating my weaknesses. Current meta is mitigate your weaknesses and squeeze it all into a single group. Near impossible to due. I give up on that and except that I have weaknesses but I know what my weaknesses are. I will try to mitigate my weaknesses through smart play. My defense for my shaman's is my mobility and frontline pressue. 8 sticky feetz, run away tactic, instant rez's and a Mean frontline. My frontline is protected by a dumb amount of absorbs and healing.

Will what I listed beat all groups out there? No it won't. Sign's of a good game. It will crush some group comps and will be crushed by others. There are natural counters in this game. Stack a bunch of engineer's and i'll have problems. Stack a bunch of BW and I'll have problems. But you can't limp in on me, I won't fall over with just one because I know they are my weakness and I'll have them at high target priority.

These racial groups are a lot stronger then people give them credit and the playstyles would be considered exotic compared to mixed group setups. Which is probably why people are so opposed to it. I've been running experimental group set ups almost the entire time i've been playing AoR. I am still discovering new group comps and new fun approaches to the game. I am suspicious when people try to tell me that everything has been tried in this game especially when this game has had so many alterations through out its life.

Again, I'm currently running a 6 man greenskin group nearly nightly NA time. You'll see it if you play during that time. I'll slowly be expanding it to 12. Like I said a LONG time ago, this stuff takes time and you have to follow player interest.

Was this an ok response Penril? Do you need more? Sometimes forum communication is horrible.

[TenTonHammer]

So like i ask in EVERY SINGLE footpatrol thread

you want to change core aspects of the game such as morale gain (where morale gain is already broken) so that it will "work well", for the 12v12/Pr0 WB v WB scale gameplay but in return completely break small scale/6v6 gameplay

6v6 realated balances changes can translate well into large scale but balance changes focused on WB v WB scale gameplay translate as well

[footpatrol2]

Look, straight up RoR morale gain is not the same as the mythic servers.

I am only asking that the morale gain go to what it was on the mythic servers and the morale drain upon death be put back into place like it was on the mythic servers. I am not asking for something new. Nor is that the sole focus of this post.

I haven't written anything on WB vs WB on this thread. That is you bringing up WB vs WB.

I only extremely recently brought up 12 v 12 which, if you haven't noticed there are double premade's in the sc's a lot now. So what I'm talking about isn't really that crazy. Almost all Sc's in this game are 12 man and some being 18 man very few are 6 man.

[TenTonHammer]

because every one of your racial groups threads, argument defenses and theorycrafting is made from the point of WB v WB encounters.

Secondly this thread wasnt about wanting moral rates to go back to AoR rates (if it was or thats what you desired then you should have made a seperate thread for that) cause you list a whole host of changes and reworks that you want to see made.

Lol AoE pounce damage, pounce is a an ablity designed as a gap closer vs kiters secondly WL has insane burst potential he dosnt need to throw that burst in AoE hes ment to be a ST class.

then rebump the thread with a response to my statemant from another thread that you still think that chosen and KOTBS having the shortest cooldown super punt in the game even though their already the best tanks; and showing up BG and IB's core superpunts making both less viable in groups, is complealty ok.

A notion i still find laughable

Even with yor desired changes to morale gain AP pump tactics and ablities would still be extreamly strong it wouldnt really change that much and just adding even more morale gain tactics just exacerbates the issue considering we have just started getting gear with morale gain bonuses down the line it will become even more prevalent

[footpatrol2]

because every one of your racial groups threads, argument defenses and theorycrafting is made from the point of WB v WB encounters.

No its not. But its not from a purely 6v6 man encounter either because there are very few instances in which this game is just 6v6.

Secondly this thread wasnt about wanting moral rates to go back to AoR rates (if it was or thats what you desired then you should have made a seperate thread for that) cause you list a whole host of changes and reworks that you want to see made.

The very first part of the thread is about restoring morale gain rates to how it was on the mythic servers. Please re-read.

Lol AoE pounce damage, pounce is a an ablity designed as a gap closer vs kiters secondly WL has insane burst potential he dosnt need to throw that burst in AoE hes ment to be a ST class.

If you know your history on pounce it used to have a AoE damage portion tied to it. RoR even brought it back for a hot minute.

then rebump the thread with a response to my statemant from another thread that you still think that chosen and KOTBS having the shortest cooldown super punt in the game even though their already the best tanks; and showing up BG and IB's core superpunts making both less viable in groups, is complealty ok.

A notion i still find laughable

Sure I'm guilty of the rebump. I was trying not to derail that thread. I put up a suggestion that was inline with this thread that was in response to yours. Have chosen/knight aura's only stack with empire and chaos factions which is inline with what i was stating earlier. I'm trying to knock chosen/knights off their mandatory throne in mixed groups while still maintaining the racial group mechanics. I'm trying to compromise.

Even with yor desired changes to morale gain AP pump tactics and ablities would still be extreamly strong it wouldnt really change that much and just adding even more morale gain tactics just exacerbates the issue considering we have just started getting gear with morale gain bonuses down the line it will become even more prevalent

I don't think your understanding whats been written in this thread or I am not being clear enough. Its probably my fault, I'm sorry.

[TenTonHammer]

You cannot make a core mechanic/feature of a class work with only 3/4 out of 12 classes on a faction


That is far too ultra situational and the backlash from the playerbase would be far too great

As you had to realize not everyone plays in racial groups and solo are in sc's would be pissed if suddenly their tank can't buff any one in their party cause their non chaos


The effectiveness of auras need to be weakened compared to other similar faction like resists aura gives a smaller value resists buff than da greenest resists buff

So it's weaker but it's consistently up and buffs everything where as da greenest buffs for a greater value but has less uptime etc basically edit the scaling

And kotbs needs a bunch of its redicilious kit toned down, even with your suggestion the calss would still be too good

[roadkillrobin]

Also there's something called risk management when it comes to RnG. To minimize risk of RnG working against you.
If you have a better sugestion i'd like to hear it.

make it so that every alternative to auras ia a stronger option than them?

so things like zealot and BO resists buffs are stronger than chosen


so while kotbs and ch can provide consistent uptime buffs they pale in comparison to the ones similar alternatives provided by other faction alternatives

That doesn't solve anything. Its still static buffs wich is the core ballance issue compared to other tanks that actually need to be in melee range and hit stuff and not get blocked or parried to even get the buffs.

[footpatrol2]

You cannot make a core mechanic/feature of a class work with only 3/4 out of 12 classes on a faction

Yes you can run racial groups and be competitive but a lot of their tricks have been takin away due to mix group exploits which this post tries to address in the first post of the thread. I'm trying to show a different design direction then mythic took with mix group exploits at a time when this game was more balanced then 1.4.8. (<---subjective)

That is far too ultra situational and the backlash from the playerbase would be far too great

As you had to realize not everyone plays in racial groups and solo are in sc's would be pissed if suddenly their tank can't buff any one in their party cause their non chaos

This ^. This is why we can't have nice things. This is why mythic couldn't make a change and go, I suspect, the original direction with the game (guessing).

The chaos/Knight aura change I suggested would not completely destroy the class. It would slightly knock them off their throne which was the purpose. You think they should be nerf'd even more or in a different direction. I do not. I like small conservative over-arching changes. I don't like introducing a new mechanics when things ain't that broke to begin with.

The effectiveness of auras need to be weakened compared to other similar faction like resists aura gives a smaller value resists buff than da greenest resists buff

So it's weaker but it's consistently up and buffs everything where as da greenest buffs for a greater value but has less uptime etc basically edit the scaling

And kotbs needs a bunch of its redicilious kit toned down, even with your suggestion the calss would still be too good

Ya don't agree with you. Your trying to balance this game from a mixed group perspective. You want a chosen/BG to be viable. What I'm about to say basically deserves its own thread. There is a notion in the community to have one of each class/race in your group. That it NEEDS to be that way. Sure you can approach this game from that perspective and its fine. The classes are built to a purpose and that purpose makes more sense if you look at it from a racial group perspective this is to include the racial morales and spec specific racial morale 4's. There are also reason's on why you want to stack same classes. Its SO much more flexible and not nearly as rigid as people make it out to be. This stuff isn't set in stone.

There are reason's to run 2 knights or chosens in the same group. There are reasons to run two BO or SM's in the same group. There are reasons to run 2 IB's or BG's in the same group. I've shown in this thread, reasons to run 2 BG's in the same group...

By making chosen/BG viable your destroying some of the racial group synergy on why you don't want to take that in a racial group especially now since we lack the racial morale gain tactic from renown. Your picking up the torch where mythic left off in the slow distancing away from racial groups.

This game seems broken as hell from a mixed group perspective and it completely is. Your trying to shove square pegs into a circle hole and complaining on why it doesn't work. This game doesn't look broken as hell from a racial group perspective. My circle pegs easily fit into the circle holes. I know people don't share my opinion.

[Gobtar]

The game is modular, and the building block is the party. You can do every element of the game with a party. Warbands are a grouping of parties, global warband buffs are incredibly rare.

You may be interested in have incentives for a racial group, but you can't expect that the game will kowtow to your desire to balance the game on macro level vs micro level without providing a tremendous amount of examples on how doing so will not hurt the micro balance of the game.

In my suggestion I made earlier, I endeavored to reward a party for playing a certain set-up. We could call this a Themed Buff. because it is rewarding players at the 6 man level they would receive a buff for being segregated, playing outside of this composition might yield better results as a result of options and meta, but playing into it, allows themed groups to enjoy a composition that wouldn't be valid normally.

In my story I discussed that the desire to play into fluff vs being competetive has long been in the history of Warhammer and much of table top gaming in general, but by taking an single-minded approach you are losing allies for you cause, and because of it lose any ability to compromise and win minds over.

Many players including devs have tried to discuss this with but you have seemingly alienated them, we have tried to illustrate that balancing the game needs to be done as faction/party level not race/Warband level but you appear hesitant to even compromise on this fact.

I implore you, try to work with us on ideas that could enhance the game, there is no way the devs will rip apart what balance they have to build the game from the sky-down.

[TenTonHammer]

“Conservative” and “Overarching” are inherently conflicting concepts you cant have conservative overarching changes

Now

Run 2 BGs in your group and a racial group of DE, no resists debuff from magus or chosen for sorcs greatly weakening their damage output , no resists debuff from chosen for witch elfs witchbrew which WE will have to get anyway since they have to go up that tree for inc hd

You run 2 kotbs because the class has a lot of good tactics and abilities that running 2 allows you to free up tac slots and auras so you have more freedom on what 2 run this is not the case with chosen whom dont have as many good auras and tactics hence why people run 1 of them

you cant run 2 WH because they are squishy glass cannons, they are not maras whom are the tankiest mdps with a lot of good utility and dmg hence why people run 2 maras

I could go on but youd probably say something about running 2 wls in ok because of am inc hd or something

I don’t know man im done trying to wrap my head around your insistence of balancing lackluster racial groups

When the RoR devs want to balance this game the balance of mixed groups will come before “racial groups” hence changes that remove the viability of classes in mixed setting are extreamly unlikely to happen

The changes you want you’d have better luck implementing by making your own server tbt