Changelog 08/08/2016

[Azarael]

@Penril:

1) I explained how in the previous post. If you're suggesting the base rewards for ALL scenarios are poor, then we'll have to discuss what to do about them. For the record, they are - it's a fixed 60 renown per 100 points, x2 if you win, +100 if you win by 500 points.

2) This is what the average completion time system is designed to do.

The rewards for a scenario are determined by the average time taken to complete it. Faster completions are more reward-efficient than slower ones. As the players become more efficient at completing a scenario, the average completion time will drop and the rewards will shift, along with the definition of an exceptional win.

@Dresden:

You made your point and were responded to.

Do NOT requote your post on the new page without including my reply. If you wish to leave the conversation, go.

[Dresden]

Yeah I've been following your complaints through this thread, and I've been totally ignoring them for a very simple reason:

The damn scenario doesn't stop being about killing just because there are no direct rewards for the act of killing.

Objective scenarios still reward superior skill at killing, because you're fighting over an objective. If you can't defeat the enemy, you can't assume control over the objective or at the very least, your force is weakened. The difference is that objective-based scenarios have the potential to reward being objective-focused and playing as a team more than deathmatch ones.

The idea behind any kind of objective-based gametype is to use the objectives to direct the flow of the battle. The difference between objective scenarios and deathmatch ones is that in DM, killing is both the MEANS and the END. In objective scenarios, killing is the MEANS by which you accomplish a different END (completing the objective).

I'm astounded that I even need to explain this and I was trying my best not to, but your righteous indignation has finally gotten the better of my patience.

The idea behind any kind of objective-based gametype is to use the objectives to direct the flow of the battle. The difference between objective scenarios and deathmatch ones is that in DM, killing is both the MEANS and the END. In objective scenarios, killing is the MEANS by which you accomplish a different END (completing the objective).

I understand all of this, i have understood all of this for as long as i have played this game.

Under this new/changing system all killing occurs/does not occur for radically different reasons than it did before.

The motivational dynamic of killing and the point and meaning of killing has changed/is changing in Scenarios.

...

I have nothing further to say on this matter, i will now remove myself permanently from this conversation.

I'm sorry if i've caused any consternation or offence.

[bloodi]

edit: Just wanted to say, our premade did a lot of SCs last night and no one really paid attention to the rewards we were getting (no one cared, i dare say). We were having a lot of fun in the new SCs (Maw of Madness being one of my new favorites). People should try to focus on having fun instead of just focusing on the "carrot".

I am sure "we had funs" is great metric to balance scenarios around.

I type this as i am waiting a phoenix gate scenario to end where we are losing 22-286 and therte is 2 minutes left on the timer, we have no healers and destruction refuses to cap while they type **** like "you hide like rats" in say chat.

[Dresden]

edit: Just wanted to say, our premade did a lot of SCs last night and no one really paid attention to the rewards we were getting (no one cared, i dare say). We were having a lot of fun in the new SCs (Maw of Madness being one of my new favorites). People should try to focus on having fun instead of just focusing on the "carrot".

I am sure "we had funs" is great metric to balance scenarios around.

I type this as i am waiting a phoenix gate scenario to end where we are losing 22-286 and therte is 2 minutes left on the timer, we have no healers and destruction refuses to cap while they type **** like "you hide like rats" in say chat.

I think we should wait out the changes and see where it goes, they do ask for our patience, it's better if we give it.

[Penril]

I wasn't really suggesting the rewards were poor... they seem fine on my lvl35 rr25 BW. They are poor on my rr40 Sorc though, due to the limit on renown gains when you are rr40+. If the renown-gain cap (25% iirc) was removed, people wouldn't be complaining that much about SC rewards. In fact, I bet most people who complain about SC rewards are rr40+.

Most don't even notice this in ORvR, because they are

a) Zerging, and used to gaining 1 renown point when killing someone, or
b) Fighting the zerg, and AAO lets them gain pretty good renown.

Maybe before adjusting the base SC rewards for winning, the renown-gain cap should be removed (or at least taken into consideration for any calculation you do).

[Penril]

edit: Just wanted to say, our premade did a lot of SCs last night and no one really paid attention to the rewards we were getting (no one cared, i dare say). We were having a lot of fun in the new SCs (Maw of Madness being one of my new favorites). People should try to focus on having fun instead of just focusing on the "carrot".

I am sure "we had funs" is great metric to balance scenarios around.

I type this as i am waiting a phoenix gate scenario to end where we are losing 22-286 and therte is 2 minutes left on the timer, we have no healers and destruction refuses to cap while they type **** like "you hide like rats" in say chat.

Actually, i think fun should be the most important metric for balancing a videogame. We play to have fun, after all, right?

The difficult part is making it fun for both sides (you can have fun even when losing, but being spawn camped in a situation like you mentioned really sucks, and is boring for both sides).

[Azarael]

I'm trying to solve that as well. The incentive to spawncamp is renown, which you can bank until winning the SC as late as possible. NIx that incentive and you kill most of it. Then all you have to do is have the game detect spawncamping conditions (entire team refusing to leave a base) and automatically score for the winning team whether they like it or not.

As the rewards on objective-based scenarios will be fixed, it's always better reward-wise to win as quickly as possible.

[bloodi]

Actually, i think fun should be the most important metric for balancing a videogame. We play to have fun, after all, right?

Yeah, thats why when you get out of your night doing premades in scs and go into a conversation about the problems in the current sc system, you dont go and say "hey guys stop discussing about the problems and focus on having fun!"

We are discussing the problems because well, you know, they have an impact in the amount of fun we have, when you tell me to try to have fun because i am talking about the issues on the current system, i cannot help but think that you dont seem to get where the issues come from at all.

You know, tell me where its the fun of having to idle on scs because the opposition refuses to cap, people just afks, since, no rewards from kills means trying to scrape 100 points by kills is pointless and the enemy rathers farms us and then sends some idiot to do the objective job when there is 2 minutes left.

[Penril]

Actually, i think fun should be the most important metric for balancing a videogame. We play to have fun, after all, right?

Yeah, thats why when you get out of your night doing premades in scs and go into a conversation about the problems in the current sc system, you dont go and say "hey guys stop discussing about the problems and focus on having fun!"

We are discussing the problems because well, you know, they have an impact in the amount of fun we have, when you tell me to try to have fun because i am talking about the issues on the current system, i cannot help but think that you dont seem to get where the issues come from at all.

You know, tell me where its the fun of having to idle on scs because the opposition refuses to cap, people just afks, since, no rewards from kills means trying to scrape 100 points by kills is pointless and the enemy rathers farms us and then sends some idiot to do the objective job when there is 2 minutes left.

If you are gonna quote me, quote the whole thing. Like the part where i asked if base rewards would be increased, or if there would be an extra reward when finishing a objective-SC under a certain time, to possibly reduce spawn camping and kill farming. Basically acknowledging there is a problem, and trying to give some suggestions. But yeah, let's just focus on the part where I said i still had fun in spite of the current system being what it is. "he had fun! therefore, he thinks everything is fine!!!".

Moron.

[StormX2]

shots fired man.